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Europe/Japan are as worried as USA about IP theft and totally unfair access to the Chinese market. India and South-East Asia countries have no love affair with

Europe/Japan are as worried as USA about IP theft and totally unfair access to the Chinese market. India and South-East Asia countries have no love affair with China. Africa is more and more disillusioned with China `investments`.

jacquesm 9y ago
The Chinese are doing exactly what the United States, Europe and Japan have been doing for the last 50 years or so, they are flooding the world with their products while at the same time protecting their home market. Japan did this far worse than China is doing it at the moment. I'm all for leveling the playing field, but I'd hope it would be done with some intelligence rather than these knee jerk responses that actually achieve the opposite effect. Nobody forced United States and EU companies to relocate their manufacturing to the other side of the planet. If we want to be less reliant on the Chinese then it starts with no longer buying the cheapest crap possible. IP games are the last resort of failed companies, maybe it will also be the last resort of countries that have lost all their other abilities.
- NicoJuicy 9y ago
  When Belgium left their colony Congo, a lot went to shit ( corruption) I'm not saying it was ever good, but at a later stage, a lot improved. I believe mostly because of world wide media and things that leaked ( stealing resources,...), Which put a lot of pressure on the government
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    See also: India and the British. But that doesn't make it right. And the Belgians (and the British) like most of the other colonial powers have a long history of terrible crimes against humanity on their books.
    - badosu 9y ago
      If you look at the history of the opium wars and the century of humiliation you can see clearly the Chinese mindset and why it's so unapologetic.
    - NicoJuicy 8y ago
      See Congo crisis after the Belgians left
      - throw2016 8y ago
        See 'Heart of Darkness' by Joseph Conrad and that was written in 1899. The Belgian conquest of Congo remains one of the darkest periods of human history littered with crimes against humanity. Since this is so well known once can only assume you have no idea what you are talking about. [1][2][3][4][5][6]. Congo is currently a global center of valuable minerals for western companies and has been plundered ruthlessly for 300 years by the west. It's like pointing to the sorry state of Iraq, Libya or Syria 50 years on to insinuate some deficiency while forgetting to mention the complete destruction and devastation of these countries on brazenly false pretexts by western governments. 1. http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-2439639 http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-2439639 2. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/oct/22/congo.rorycarroll https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/oct/22/congo.rorycarr... 3. https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2002/10/cong-o26.html https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2002/10/cong-o26.html 4. https://www.thesiriusreport.com/geopolitics/silent-genocide-congo/ https://www.thesiriusreport.com/geopolitics/silent-genocide-... 5. https://newint.org/features/2004/05/01/congo https://newint.org/features/2004/05/01/congo 6. https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2016/01/blood-minerals-profits-conflict-drc-160118124123342.html https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2016/01/blood-min...
        NicoJuicy 8y ago
        Didn't read? > I'm not saying it was ever good, but at a later stage, a lot improved. I believe mostly because of world wide media and things that leaked ( stealing resources,...), Which put a lot of pressure on the government
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- wil421 9y ago
  US/Europe/Japan were creating the global market and creating a system to integrate markets 50 years ago. It’s a little different than China entering the game while also engineering their economy to be favorable as a manufacturing hub. At the same time they may or may not be completely manipulating their books to keep make sure they stay the world’s de facto manufacturing hub.
- mistermann 9y ago
  > The Chinese are doing exactly what the United States, Europe and Japan have been doing for the last 50 years or so, they are flooding the world with their products while at the same time protecting their home market. China is simply acting in their long term best interests, according to what they can get away with - adhering to trade agreements where they can without disadvantage, apologizing and promising to do better where they violate them. Meanwhile, half clueless American politicians fiddle while China takes an ever larger lead in critical areas of manufacturing and technology, adding to the manufacturing portfolio that is completely under their control. Unlike so many others, you yourself can at least see what's happening ("Nobody forced United States and EU companies to relocate their manufacturing to the other side of the planet"), but with seemingly at least half of people under the impression that there is tariff parity between the US & China (who knows where they get such wrong ideas), that China is completely compliant on all agreements, and that any disagreement here is completely an issue of the POTUS being an uninformed child, how do you recommend serious policy makers approach this situation? The United States assumed the role of world leadership from England based on a lot of luck (geographical isolation from WW2), from my vantage point China is well on it's way from doing the same to the US, but without even needing the benefit of a war, Western corporate leaders have done an amazing amount of work in industrializing China, and the young University educated American public is doing great work running interference for Chinese leaders, by suggesting any voices who dare mention the possibility that China is doing anything wrong are motivated by something equivalent to racism. To me it seems like an utterly bizarre situation, I can hardly believe I am witnessing it. In my experience, I am a massive minority in these beliefs, but I've never been able to find someone to point to reasoning for why my thinking is wrong.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    I think the major problem is the stock markets. Stock markets have forced Western corporate management and by extension the politicians to focus on the next three months at the expense of the future. So we're all locked into every expanding cycles of short term thinking begetting other short term thinking. It's like domino pieces touching each other lightly but they fall anyway and soon enough there won't be any standing. And we'll still be trying to enforce the rules of the game (IP) but without any serious clout to back that up and then it will be game over. It's going to be a very interesting two decades ahead and it's always good to remind yourself that to live in interesting times is a curse, not a blessing.
- 2f89u23 8y ago
  > I'm all for leveling the playing field No you're not, or you'd realize you're advocating a zero sum game It's the same as advocating for more women and minorities in industry; white men lose. Some other side will lose, because our economy doesn't operate on "even playing fields." It operates on "I have advantage and must protect it." The rich have an advantage of being rich and can sell some argument about knowing how to use their leverage to build companies to put people to work. USA had "The rest of the world is a smoking crater." after WW2 China has "No one else has a manufacturing base for electronics like we do." Advocating for a level playing field would be like universal healthcare, and not being forced trade away to the rich elite our creative endeavors for basic survival. You're peddling disingenuous political correctness that ignores physical reality.
  - jacquesm 8y ago
    > It's the same as advocating for more women and minorities in industry; white men lose. With lines like that I'm sure you'll make lots of friends here. /s The world economy has profited handily from globalism at the same time that it has concentrated power and has made a very few people insanely rich. If we want to get to a more sustainable model for the longer term then we will have to forego short term profits and our hunt for the cheapest priced items. It's an open problem on whether or not capitalism combined with democracies and the power of money in politics is sustainable or not. I'd bet against it, but time will tell.
    - 2f89u23 8y ago
      >> It's the same as advocating for more women and minorities in industry; white men lose. > With lines like that I'm sure you'll make lots of friends here. /s You stopped reading at that sentence apparently. I was using it as a descriptive parallel and it does happen that when we protect a new group, another loses. This is something economists themselves have pointed at throughout history, it's something James Madison wrote about when he wrote the Constitution (government should protect the rich from the poor; picking a class to favor, is how humans do if they think it'll win them favor.) Ya'll are memorizing economic models, but not the human stories that exist as an outcome of them. We've concentrated wealth like this before. It's not new. Economics are not physics. It's ephemeral nonsense that doesn't exist without human writing them down. Someone "pulled out" economics as a description of material trade, then decided they could use it to convince government to pass favorable rules. Advocating for a level playing field would be like universal healthcare, and not being forced trade away to the rich elite our creative endeavors for basic survival. You're peddling disingenuous political correctness that ignores physical reality.

jacquesm 9y ago

The Chinese are doing exactly what the United States, Europe and Japan have been doing for the last 50 years or so, they are flooding the world with their products while at the same time protecting their home market. Japan did this far worse than China is doing it at the moment. I'm all for leveling the playing field, but I'd hope it would be done with some intelligence rather than these knee jerk responses that actually achieve the opposite effect. Nobody forced United States and EU companies to relocate their manufacturing to the other side of the planet. If we want to be less reliant on the Chinese then it starts with no longer buying the cheapest crap possible. IP games are the last resort of failed companies, maybe it will also be the last resort of countries that have lost all their other abilities.

NicoJuicy 9y ago
When Belgium left their colony Congo, a lot went to shit ( corruption) I'm not saying it was ever good, but at a later stage, a lot improved. I believe mostly because of world wide media and things that leaked ( stealing resources,...), Which put a lot of pressure on the government
- jacquesm 9y ago
  See also: India and the British. But that doesn't make it right. And the Belgians (and the British) like most of the other colonial powers have a long history of terrible crimes against humanity on their books.
  - badosu 9y ago
    If you look at the history of the opium wars and the century of humiliation you can see clearly the Chinese mindset and why it's so unapologetic.
  - NicoJuicy 8y ago
    See Congo crisis after the Belgians left
    - throw2016 8y ago
      See 'Heart of Darkness' by Joseph Conrad and that was written in 1899. The Belgian conquest of Congo remains one of the darkest periods of human history littered with crimes against humanity. Since this is so well known once can only assume you have no idea what you are talking about. [1][2][3][4][5][6]. Congo is currently a global center of valuable minerals for western companies and has been plundered ruthlessly for 300 years by the west. It's like pointing to the sorry state of Iraq, Libya or Syria 50 years on to insinuate some deficiency while forgetting to mention the complete destruction and devastation of these countries on brazenly false pretexts by western governments. 1. http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-2439639 http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-2439639 2. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/oct/22/congo.rorycarroll https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/oct/22/congo.rorycarr... 3. https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2002/10/cong-o26.html https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2002/10/cong-o26.html 4. https://www.thesiriusreport.com/geopolitics/silent-genocide-congo/ https://www.thesiriusreport.com/geopolitics/silent-genocide-... 5. https://newint.org/features/2004/05/01/congo https://newint.org/features/2004/05/01/congo 6. https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2016/01/blood-minerals-profits-conflict-drc-160118124123342.html https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2016/01/blood-min...
      - NicoJuicy 8y ago
        Didn't read? > I'm not saying it was ever good, but at a later stage, a lot improved. I believe mostly because of world wide media and things that leaked ( stealing resources,...), Which put a lot of pressure on the government
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
wil421 9y ago
US/Europe/Japan were creating the global market and creating a system to integrate markets 50 years ago. It’s a little different than China entering the game while also engineering their economy to be favorable as a manufacturing hub. At the same time they may or may not be completely manipulating their books to keep make sure they stay the world’s de facto manufacturing hub.
mistermann 9y ago
> The Chinese are doing exactly what the United States, Europe and Japan have been doing for the last 50 years or so, they are flooding the world with their products while at the same time protecting their home market. China is simply acting in their long term best interests, according to what they can get away with - adhering to trade agreements where they can without disadvantage, apologizing and promising to do better where they violate them. Meanwhile, half clueless American politicians fiddle while China takes an ever larger lead in critical areas of manufacturing and technology, adding to the manufacturing portfolio that is completely under their control. Unlike so many others, you yourself can at least see what's happening ("Nobody forced United States and EU companies to relocate their manufacturing to the other side of the planet"), but with seemingly at least half of people under the impression that there is tariff parity between the US & China (who knows where they get such wrong ideas), that China is completely compliant on all agreements, and that any disagreement here is completely an issue of the POTUS being an uninformed child, how do you recommend serious policy makers approach this situation? The United States assumed the role of world leadership from England based on a lot of luck (geographical isolation from WW2), from my vantage point China is well on it's way from doing the same to the US, but without even needing the benefit of a war, Western corporate leaders have done an amazing amount of work in industrializing China, and the young University educated American public is doing great work running interference for Chinese leaders, by suggesting any voices who dare mention the possibility that China is doing anything wrong are motivated by something equivalent to racism. To me it seems like an utterly bizarre situation, I can hardly believe I am witnessing it. In my experience, I am a massive minority in these beliefs, but I've never been able to find someone to point to reasoning for why my thinking is wrong.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  I think the major problem is the stock markets. Stock markets have forced Western corporate management and by extension the politicians to focus on the next three months at the expense of the future. So we're all locked into every expanding cycles of short term thinking begetting other short term thinking. It's like domino pieces touching each other lightly but they fall anyway and soon enough there won't be any standing. And we'll still be trying to enforce the rules of the game (IP) but without any serious clout to back that up and then it will be game over. It's going to be a very interesting two decades ahead and it's always good to remind yourself that to live in interesting times is a curse, not a blessing.
2f89u23 8y ago
> I'm all for leveling the playing field No you're not, or you'd realize you're advocating a zero sum game It's the same as advocating for more women and minorities in industry; white men lose. Some other side will lose, because our economy doesn't operate on "even playing fields." It operates on "I have advantage and must protect it." The rich have an advantage of being rich and can sell some argument about knowing how to use their leverage to build companies to put people to work. USA had "The rest of the world is a smoking crater." after WW2 China has "No one else has a manufacturing base for electronics like we do." Advocating for a level playing field would be like universal healthcare, and not being forced trade away to the rich elite our creative endeavors for basic survival. You're peddling disingenuous political correctness that ignores physical reality.
- jacquesm 8y ago
  > It's the same as advocating for more women and minorities in industry; white men lose. With lines like that I'm sure you'll make lots of friends here. /s The world economy has profited handily from globalism at the same time that it has concentrated power and has made a very few people insanely rich. If we want to get to a more sustainable model for the longer term then we will have to forego short term profits and our hunt for the cheapest priced items. It's an open problem on whether or not capitalism combined with democracies and the power of money in politics is sustainable or not. I'd bet against it, but time will tell.
  - 2f89u23 8y ago
    >> It's the same as advocating for more women and minorities in industry; white men lose. > With lines like that I'm sure you'll make lots of friends here. /s You stopped reading at that sentence apparently. I was using it as a descriptive parallel and it does happen that when we protect a new group, another loses. This is something economists themselves have pointed at throughout history, it's something James Madison wrote about when he wrote the Constitution (government should protect the rich from the poor; picking a class to favor, is how humans do if they think it'll win them favor.) Ya'll are memorizing economic models, but not the human stories that exist as an outcome of them. We've concentrated wealth like this before. It's not new. Economics are not physics. It's ephemeral nonsense that doesn't exist without human writing them down. Someone "pulled out" economics as a description of material trade, then decided they could use it to convince government to pass favorable rules. Advocating for a level playing field would be like universal healthcare, and not being forced trade away to the rich elite our creative endeavors for basic survival. You're peddling disingenuous political correctness that ignores physical reality.