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That's a poor argument. I've gotten offers from many tech giants. They all included a sign-on cash bonus. Often much bigger than Amazon's. Amazon's total offer

That's a poor argument. I've gotten offers from many tech giants. They all included a sign-on cash bonus. Often much bigger than Amazon's. Amazon's total offer was usually about 100k lower. Sometimes more. Amazon SWEs still earn hundreds of thousands of dollars. So being treated poorly and paid less is relative. In Amazon's defense, I have friends who enjoy working there. The MBAs especially love it. Again, it's not like anyone is stuck in some Nike sweatshop from 1974.

isostatic 8y ago
White collar jobs are somewhat different than. We have choice, we have power. The best bet for amazon warehouse employees, and delivery drivers, would be to unionise. This would lead to either 1) More investment in robotics, taking away menial jobs 2) Better conditions for shelf-stackers. Both are good -- as a society we should not be making people work when the work could be done by robots.
- acdha 8y ago
  I disagree only in the assessment that unionization isn’t also good advice for people with desk jobs. The C-level sees us as expensive workers who need to be treated better but still an expense rather than peers.
- crankylinuxuser 8y ago
  Roboticization is great for the long-term, Star Trek style economy. It's the Bell Riots and Sanctuary Districts I'm worried about.
  - krapp 8y ago
    Of course... Star Trek's economy didn't run on robots, it ran on magic wish boxes that would defy the laws of physics in the real world. Which is why I suspect when it comes to Star Trek's future, we'll get to the dystopia, but not the utopia.
- aquadrop 8y ago
  More automation -> less jobs -> more pressure to keep working at the awful, but paying job you have. I think best solution is universal basic income, but that of course is far from being accepted in USA. But it gives power to people, it make them not being so afraid to lose a job, so employers have to act accordingly.
  - isostatic 8y ago
    Possibly, UBI or negative income tax (which is probably easier to administer) may be required, but it may not. In India, they still employ someone to sit on a chair in a lift pressing the button. Even in the western world we employ doormen. Of course while people vote against their best interests (the false belief that hard work guarantees success) I'm sure that those with the power will continue to exploit those without.
    - Mediterraneo10 8y ago
      > In India, they still employ someone to sit on a chair in a lift pressing the button. A culture of makework can be harmful in that it would push some people to do pointless jobs when they might actually do something beneficial for society (but perhaps not profit-generating) if they were given free time. For example, I am fortunate to work remotely in a job that pays me a lot of money, but I am in a country with low cost of living. That means I only work 2–3 days a week. All the rest of my time I am busy with obsessively editing OpenStreetMap, writing the occasional journal publication in the field I trained in at university, and participating in the local arts scene as an audience or writer. I know that if I got to receive UBI, I would still be doing things with my time that are overall contributing to society. Please don’t make me sit in an elevator all day to press buttons instead.
      - isostatic 8y ago
        Yes, pushing buttons or boxing amazon deliveries is a waste of humanity's time. The question is will society allow us to move to a system where we work 20 hour weeks doing the same amount of productive work we do now. I would like to think we will. I suspect we'll have people doing 60 hora a week of breaking rocks for no reason other than making those higher up the food chain think they aren't hetting a free ride.
jhall1468 8y ago
> Amazon's total offer was usually about 100k lower. Come on, that's so misleading. Offers from the big tech companies come in 4 year bundles. There's no way your offer was $100k per year lower unless you didn't get leveled the same at Amazon as you did Google. I got an offer from Google in Mountain View and despite being CONSIDERABLY higher, the COL difference made Amazon's pay higher. And that assumed stock prices remained the same. They've doubled.
- kelukelugames 8y ago
  It's not. I had offers from multiple companies at sde 2. Amazon's was so bad that the recruiter was embarrassed to tell me they couldn't up the offer. I'm sure there are huge variances but the last comp survey on hn showed Amazon is a bit behind.

isostatic 8y ago

White collar jobs are somewhat different than. We have choice, we have power. The best bet for amazon warehouse employees, and delivery drivers, would be to unionise. This would lead to either 1) More investment in robotics, taking away menial jobs 2) Better conditions for shelf-stackers. Both are good -- as a society we should not be making people work when the work could be done by robots.

acdha 8y ago
I disagree only in the assessment that unionization isn’t also good advice for people with desk jobs. The C-level sees us as expensive workers who need to be treated better but still an expense rather than peers.
crankylinuxuser 8y ago
Roboticization is great for the long-term, Star Trek style economy. It's the Bell Riots and Sanctuary Districts I'm worried about.
- krapp 8y ago
  Of course... Star Trek's economy didn't run on robots, it ran on magic wish boxes that would defy the laws of physics in the real world. Which is why I suspect when it comes to Star Trek's future, we'll get to the dystopia, but not the utopia.
aquadrop 8y ago
More automation -> less jobs -> more pressure to keep working at the awful, but paying job you have. I think best solution is universal basic income, but that of course is far from being accepted in USA. But it gives power to people, it make them not being so afraid to lose a job, so employers have to act accordingly.
- isostatic 8y ago
  Possibly, UBI or negative income tax (which is probably easier to administer) may be required, but it may not. In India, they still employ someone to sit on a chair in a lift pressing the button. Even in the western world we employ doormen. Of course while people vote against their best interests (the false belief that hard work guarantees success) I'm sure that those with the power will continue to exploit those without.
  - Mediterraneo10 8y ago
    > In India, they still employ someone to sit on a chair in a lift pressing the button. A culture of makework can be harmful in that it would push some people to do pointless jobs when they might actually do something beneficial for society (but perhaps not profit-generating) if they were given free time. For example, I am fortunate to work remotely in a job that pays me a lot of money, but I am in a country with low cost of living. That means I only work 2–3 days a week. All the rest of my time I am busy with obsessively editing OpenStreetMap, writing the occasional journal publication in the field I trained in at university, and participating in the local arts scene as an audience or writer. I know that if I got to receive UBI, I would still be doing things with my time that are overall contributing to society. Please don’t make me sit in an elevator all day to press buttons instead.
    - isostatic 8y ago
      Yes, pushing buttons or boxing amazon deliveries is a waste of humanity's time. The question is will society allow us to move to a system where we work 20 hour weeks doing the same amount of productive work we do now. I would like to think we will. I suspect we'll have people doing 60 hora a week of breaking rocks for no reason other than making those higher up the food chain think they aren't hetting a free ride.

jhall1468 8y ago

> Amazon's total offer was usually about 100k lower. Come on, that's so misleading. Offers from the big tech companies come in 4 year bundles. There's no way your offer was $100k per year lower unless you didn't get leveled the same at Amazon as you did Google. I got an offer from Google in Mountain View and despite being CONSIDERABLY higher, the COL difference made Amazon's pay higher. And that assumed stock prices remained the same. They've doubled.

kelukelugames 8y ago
It's not. I had offers from multiple companies at sde 2. Amazon's was so bad that the recruiter was embarrassed to tell me they couldn't up the offer. I'm sure there are huge variances but the last comp survey on hn showed Amazon is a bit behind.