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Concerns about digital sovereignty will be one of the primary forces shaping the tech industry for years to come. Governments are realizing that they can’t depe

Concerns about digital sovereignty will be one of the primary forces shaping the tech industry for years to come. Governments are realizing that they can’t depend on companies controlled by potential adversaries. They must expect that other governments will turn their companies into arms of their security apparatus. This action is ostensibly about sanctions on North Korea, but it’s clearly part of a bigger battle where both the US and China are trying to reduce their technological reliance on, and vulnerability to, the other. If the US and China got into a war, does anyone doubt that the US would seriously consider ordering Apple and Google to deliver “updates” turning devices in China into spying tools? Or demand that FB hand over the private messages of all foreign users? And does anyone doubt that China would consider doing the same with Huawei or ZTE phones and networking equipment?

icebraining 9y ago
I'd be surprised if both weren't already doing it.
jacquesm 9y ago
> Concerns about digital sovereignty will be one of the primary forces shaping the tech industry for years to come. They have been for the last 35 years or so. > This action is ostensibly about sanctions on North Korea, but it’s clearly part of a bigger battle where both the US and China are trying to reduce their technological reliance on, and vulnerability to, the other. No, it has the exact opposite effect. It reduces China's reliance on the United States. Normally the United States would welcome such dependencies. By playing this card early it loses its power at a moment in time when it doesn't matter much giving the Chinese ample time to source their bits and pieces elsewhere or even to set up domestic production. > Governments are realizing that they can’t depend on companies controlled by potential adversaries. Again, you have it backwards. The United States is giving up control over a company, it's not that the United States is forbidding it's own companies to import hardware from China, it is forbidding US companies from exporting components. > If the US and China got into a war, does anyone doubt that the US would seriously consider ordering Apple and Google to deliver “updates” turning devices in China into bricks or spying tools? Or demand that FB hand over the private messages of all foreign users? I don't think anybody would be dumb enough to assume that. > And does anyone doubt that China would consider doing the same with Huawei or ZTE phones and networking equipment? Neither, but it doesn't have anything to do with the matter at hand. The US and China are - for now - not in a war. Though given the degree of uncertainty and randomness in the present day configuration you can't rule it out either.
- marcoperaza 9y ago
  An actual hot war is just the extreme case of conflict. Things need not rise to that level for these concerns to matter. And yes, these concerns are not new but they are becoming more salient. As for the effect of this particular action, it is not so simple. You are assuming that the US’s only interest is having chips to hang over China’s head in a moment of crisis.[1] But we also have more strategic interests, like undermining the global market for potentially backdoored phones ultimately controlled by China’s security apparatus. A full analysis would have to answer questions such as: What are ZTE’s prospects for finding equivalent components from other sources? Will they need to redesign their devices? How will that affect ZTE’s prices? And how will this all translate to changes in marketshare in various countries? In one year? Two? Ten? [1] And this isn’t even a great chip to use in such a crisis. Damage to China’s interests here will be gradual and over a longer period. In real crises, more immediate interests would overwhelm this kind of thing.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    > But we also have an interest in undermining the global market for potentially backdoored phones ultimately controlled by China’s security apparatus. And again: this will achieve the exact opposite. Without US chips at the heart of those phones the chances of backdoored phones increase tremendously.
- ksk 9y ago
  >doesn't matter much giving the Chinese ample time to source their bits and pieces elsewhere or even to set up domestic production. China has been trying to beg/buy/borrow/steal cutting edge semiconductor tech for ages. They're still having to import all their important chips from US/Japan/Korea/EU. IIRC they're at 100+micrometers, (leading tech from the year 2000) Far from the < 20 that intel/tsmc/etc are at.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    Why do you think China is so keep on keeping the world informed that Taiwan is a 'ROC'? A couple more moves like these and you might see that part dropped in return for something more forceful. Keep in mind that trade wars and sanctions are the prelude to shooting wars and that after NATO let the Russians roll all over Ukraine there is substantial doubt about whether or not the West would intervene if China made a move on Taiwan.

icebraining 9y ago

I'd be surprised if both weren't already doing it.

jacquesm 9y ago

> Concerns about digital sovereignty will be one of the primary forces shaping the tech industry for years to come. They have been for the last 35 years or so. > This action is ostensibly about sanctions on North Korea, but it’s clearly part of a bigger battle where both the US and China are trying to reduce their technological reliance on, and vulnerability to, the other. No, it has the exact opposite effect. It reduces China's reliance on the United States. Normally the United States would welcome such dependencies. By playing this card early it loses its power at a moment in time when it doesn't matter much giving the Chinese ample time to source their bits and pieces elsewhere or even to set up domestic production. > Governments are realizing that they can’t depend on companies controlled by potential adversaries. Again, you have it backwards. The United States is giving up control over a company, it's not that the United States is forbidding it's own companies to import hardware from China, it is forbidding US companies from exporting components. > If the US and China got into a war, does anyone doubt that the US would seriously consider ordering Apple and Google to deliver “updates” turning devices in China into bricks or spying tools? Or demand that FB hand over the private messages of all foreign users? I don't think anybody would be dumb enough to assume that. > And does anyone doubt that China would consider doing the same with Huawei or ZTE phones and networking equipment? Neither, but it doesn't have anything to do with the matter at hand. The US and China are - for now - not in a war. Though given the degree of uncertainty and randomness in the present day configuration you can't rule it out either.

marcoperaza 9y ago
An actual hot war is just the extreme case of conflict. Things need not rise to that level for these concerns to matter. And yes, these concerns are not new but they are becoming more salient. As for the effect of this particular action, it is not so simple. You are assuming that the US’s only interest is having chips to hang over China’s head in a moment of crisis.[1] But we also have more strategic interests, like undermining the global market for potentially backdoored phones ultimately controlled by China’s security apparatus. A full analysis would have to answer questions such as: What are ZTE’s prospects for finding equivalent components from other sources? Will they need to redesign their devices? How will that affect ZTE’s prices? And how will this all translate to changes in marketshare in various countries? In one year? Two? Ten? [1] And this isn’t even a great chip to use in such a crisis. Damage to China’s interests here will be gradual and over a longer period. In real crises, more immediate interests would overwhelm this kind of thing.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  > But we also have an interest in undermining the global market for potentially backdoored phones ultimately controlled by China’s security apparatus. And again: this will achieve the exact opposite. Without US chips at the heart of those phones the chances of backdoored phones increase tremendously.
ksk 9y ago
>doesn't matter much giving the Chinese ample time to source their bits and pieces elsewhere or even to set up domestic production. China has been trying to beg/buy/borrow/steal cutting edge semiconductor tech for ages. They're still having to import all their important chips from US/Japan/Korea/EU. IIRC they're at 100+micrometers, (leading tech from the year 2000) Far from the < 20 that intel/tsmc/etc are at.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  Why do you think China is so keep on keeping the world informed that Taiwan is a 'ROC'? A couple more moves like these and you might see that part dropped in return for something more forceful. Keep in mind that trade wars and sanctions are the prelude to shooting wars and that after NATO let the Russians roll all over Ukraine there is substantial doubt about whether or not the West would intervene if China made a move on Taiwan.