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you could just use the meditation algorithm, and meditate by yourself for 10 (or however many) days for multiple multi-hour sessions a day, and avoid having to

you could just use the meditation algorithm, and meditate by yourself for 10 (or however many) days for multiple multi-hour sessions a day, and avoid having to sit through Goenka's religious meanderings, weird sound tracks and cultiness. Check into a cheap hotel during non-tourist season, sometime in the mountains or near a lake or sea. Switch off the phone. Eat + meditate + sleep * 10 days (or however many you want). Et voila. You get all the benefits without all the cultiness. Vipassana is a technique. You master the technique by doing it. Attending a cult's course is one way of doing it. Whether it is the optimal method is open to debate. The key seems to be to spend long hours practicing the technique for many days (vs 30 minutes a day). I'm not convinced proficiency in the technique can only by attained by a retreat with a specific organization. One can learn to program in Clojure (say) by attending a 10 day course by $ClojureGuru. One can also learn to program with a book and a laptop, and occasional questions on irc. Both methods work, and have different trade offs. Personally, I learned Vipassana (and Jhana) meditation by myself, by reading and experimenting. I've since encountered advanced Buddhist mediators (abbots of Buddhist monasteries etc) who 'confirmed' I'm "doing it right" (fwiw, I wasn't really looking for validation or advice, it just came up in conversation). They didn't seem surprised I taught myself. So I doubt it is that uncommon. If the only way to learn to 'hack' is to attend a 10 day course, that isn't much of a 'hack' in the first place. I strongly push back against the "only way to learn is be attending a 10 day course" idea. Other than this, I enjoyed reading the paper, Steven is an excellent writer. My 2 cents. YMMV, as it should. PS: I do admire the grit of anyone who actually completes the 10 day retreat, not so much the meditation as enduring all the culty BS. As grit training, it probably works ;-) PPS: I have no belief in the religious dogma of any Buddhist school. I just think the techniques are useful

alisson 9y ago
I completely agree with you, but as someone as have gone multiple times for 10-day courses what I like best about that is the organization/community as a whole, I learned a lot from serving maybe even more then just sitting actually my first glimpse of Jhana was while serving, you also have access to a very experienced teacher to talk and ask questions, and that its all free and the food is excellent, so really helps a lot. If you are able to do a course by yourself I have no doubt it can be a much deeper dive into reality. Something that is in the core teachings of Vipassana for me is that everything is just a matter of perspective, there is that no-judging perspective where you find equanimity everywhere.
- plinkplonk 9y ago
  I totally agree that a community centered effort, with expert teachers etc, would be exactly what a lot of folks need. I have no problem with whatever structure works for anyone. I was just pushing back a bit against the "only way" phrase in the paper. I'm just saying, from direct personal experience, that one can learn on one's own. There is the essence, and then there are the superficial details. e.g: you don't really have to sit cross legged on the floor to learn the technique, just because ancient Indians or Burmese people did. You can sit on a chair or stool, with your back straight, and feet flat on the ground, hands on your knees, and your meditation (Vipassana, Jhana, whatever) will work just fine. This is not to say that learning to not move around in a painful position isn't worth learning, just that it has little to do with the core technique itself. When you learn by yourself, (as you correctly point out) some things are easier, and some things are more difficult, than when learning within a community structure. As I said above, I really enjoyed reading the paper.
infiniteseeker 9y ago
> Personally, I learned Vipassana (and Jhana) meditation by myself, by reading and experimenting. I've since encountered advanced Buddhist mediators (abbots of Buddhist monasteries etc) who 'confirmed' I'm "doing it right" (fwiw, I wasn't really looking for validation or advice, it just came up in conversation). They didn't seem surprised I taught myself. So I doubt it is that uncommon. If the only way to learn to 'hack' is to attend a 10 day course, that isn't much of a 'hack' in the first place. Very commendable. Could you please share what you read that was most effective. How much did you practice every day. A brief overview please?
- plinkplonk 9y ago
  In retrospect, the best book I should have read was Shaila Catherine(spelling?)'s "Wisdom Wide and Deep", which sets out a full practice program based on the (Theravada) Buddhist texts Abhidamma and VishuddiMagga. This is about as hard core a book as you can find. Richard Shankman's "The Experience of Samadhi" is a much more lightweight alternative on just Jhana (and not Vipassana iirc), nowhere as deep but an easier read. In reality, I had to piece together 'algorithms' from random sources and test them out. The basic instructions for jhana and vipassana meditations I ended up with match with those in SK's book, though her path involves getting into extremely deep states of jhana before switching to Vipassana, wheras I developed both skills in parallel (which is a valid method and used by other Buddhist schools) I used to meditate 2 to 4 hours a day (more on self set 'retreats'). These days I meditate about an hour to 90 minutes per day. I'm not interested in going beyond basic jhana and vipassana and did not do 'skeleton meditation' , 'corpse meditation' etc, because at that point, - about the middle of Shaila's book - the meditations begin to seriously embody Buddhist dogma about the nature of reality and purpose of life etc, specifically ways to 'shake loose' your identification with your body, and so on. I have no wish to be 'liberated' from 'samsara', or otherwise be a full time Buddhist monk or the equivalent, so I stopped with achieving the ability to do either Jhana or Vipassana meditations for a few hours at a time. I use these purely in a non religious fashion, as 'weight training for my mind' and am happy with my limited achievements. Even at this relatively minor level of practice, things begin to get funky at the edges, as Steven's paper illustrates.

alisson 9y ago

I completely agree with you, but as someone as have gone multiple times for 10-day courses what I like best about that is the organization/community as a whole, I learned a lot from serving maybe even more then just sitting actually my first glimpse of Jhana was while serving, you also have access to a very experienced teacher to talk and ask questions, and that its all free and the food is excellent, so really helps a lot. If you are able to do a course by yourself I have no doubt it can be a much deeper dive into reality. Something that is in the core teachings of Vipassana for me is that everything is just a matter of perspective, there is that no-judging perspective where you find equanimity everywhere.

plinkplonk 9y ago
I totally agree that a community centered effort, with expert teachers etc, would be exactly what a lot of folks need. I have no problem with whatever structure works for anyone. I was just pushing back a bit against the "only way" phrase in the paper. I'm just saying, from direct personal experience, that one can learn on one's own. There is the essence, and then there are the superficial details. e.g: you don't really have to sit cross legged on the floor to learn the technique, just because ancient Indians or Burmese people did. You can sit on a chair or stool, with your back straight, and feet flat on the ground, hands on your knees, and your meditation (Vipassana, Jhana, whatever) will work just fine. This is not to say that learning to not move around in a painful position isn't worth learning, just that it has little to do with the core technique itself. When you learn by yourself, (as you correctly point out) some things are easier, and some things are more difficult, than when learning within a community structure. As I said above, I really enjoyed reading the paper.

infiniteseeker 9y ago

> Personally, I learned Vipassana (and Jhana) meditation by myself, by reading and experimenting. I've since encountered advanced Buddhist mediators (abbots of Buddhist monasteries etc) who 'confirmed' I'm "doing it right" (fwiw, I wasn't really looking for validation or advice, it just came up in conversation). They didn't seem surprised I taught myself. So I doubt it is that uncommon. If the only way to learn to 'hack' is to attend a 10 day course, that isn't much of a 'hack' in the first place. Very commendable. Could you please share what you read that was most effective. How much did you practice every day. A brief overview please?

plinkplonk 9y ago
In retrospect, the best book I should have read was Shaila Catherine(spelling?)'s "Wisdom Wide and Deep", which sets out a full practice program based on the (Theravada) Buddhist texts Abhidamma and VishuddiMagga. This is about as hard core a book as you can find. Richard Shankman's "The Experience of Samadhi" is a much more lightweight alternative on just Jhana (and not Vipassana iirc), nowhere as deep but an easier read. In reality, I had to piece together 'algorithms' from random sources and test them out. The basic instructions for jhana and vipassana meditations I ended up with match with those in SK's book, though her path involves getting into extremely deep states of jhana before switching to Vipassana, wheras I developed both skills in parallel (which is a valid method and used by other Buddhist schools) I used to meditate 2 to 4 hours a day (more on self set 'retreats'). These days I meditate about an hour to 90 minutes per day. I'm not interested in going beyond basic jhana and vipassana and did not do 'skeleton meditation' , 'corpse meditation' etc, because at that point, - about the middle of Shaila's book - the meditations begin to seriously embody Buddhist dogma about the nature of reality and purpose of life etc, specifically ways to 'shake loose' your identification with your body, and so on. I have no wish to be 'liberated' from 'samsara', or otherwise be a full time Buddhist monk or the equivalent, so I stopped with achieving the ability to do either Jhana or Vipassana meditations for a few hours at a time. I use these purely in a non religious fashion, as 'weight training for my mind' and am happy with my limited achievements. Even at this relatively minor level of practice, things begin to get funky at the edges, as Steven's paper illustrates.