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Not sure I would totally agree with you in all European countries having say a beer or a glass of wine with lunch is normal. I recall discussing with some one

Not sure I would totally agree with you in all European countries having say a beer or a glass of wine with lunch is normal. I recall discussing with some one who did training for mangers to deal with "serious substance abuse" and there comment was when you started finding multiple hidden stashes of spirits that was when you know they had a problem.

jopsen 9y ago
Maybe 20 years ago, and maybe still in some parts of Europe, but these days most workplaces have a strict no-alcohol policy.
- Improvotter 9y ago
  This highly depends on the type of company you work for. There almost never is a strict no-alcohol policy in most small to medium-sized companies (who make up the majority of the workforce) in Europe.
  - bsder 9y ago
    It's generally a legal thing in the US. If you have alcohol at the company, the company winds up liable if something happens. If you simply buy a round at a bar or shop, the liability is the establishment's. And, if you think the US is bad, try Canada. One of the senior VP's at a company I knew threatened to fire the director of HR because there was no beer at an all-hands meeting. :)
- walshemj 9y ago
  cite there may well be displinary consequences for being drunk at work but not for going out to lunch and having a drink with lunch. And whilst not as many companies have on premises bars any more go to almost every company in silicon roundabout and they will have beer in the fridge.
  - Cthulhu_ 9y ago
    Maybe not, but that quickly becomes an hour long + lunch and usually people don't take more than half an hour for lunch - because if they take longer they have to work longer.
    - walshemj 9y ago
      And your point is?? As a Salaried employee (as 99.9 % of hn readers are) I quite often took more than an hour for lunch - then again I used to get into the office 20 mins earlier than almost everyone.
- klmr 9y ago
  > these days most workplaces have a strict no-alcohol policy I’d be curious where you’re working because this definitely isn’t true in the UK (Friday afternoon pints at work are customary), nor in France (most canteens stock wine for lunch). And in Germany, at least in academia, having a drink in the afternoon at work is also often acceptable.
  - carlmr 9y ago
    In Germany all the companies I've worked in have a strict no-alcohol policy. But it's relatively recent (~10-15 years).
    - realityking 9y ago
      I work in mid-sized Berlin startup. At least among startups, beer, and sometimes wine, in the fridge is completely normal. Where I work it‘s not regularly consumed with lunch (kein Bier vor Vier applies) but it does happen on occasion.
jjkk0101 9y ago
I've recently moved to Europe and if there is something that I personally dislike is the higher amount of alcohol in both social and work life in general. At least in the country I live, it's quite accepted to mandate your day with a high volume of coffee, cigarettes then cool down with alcohol. And I am coming from NYC. edit: missing word
- exergy 9y ago
  The counterbalanec to it is that Europeans, generally speaking, know how to temper it with an active lifestyle. Few people I know sit at home on the weekend in front of the TV. People are out running, cyclicing, taking part in spartan races, climbing mountains, kayaking, sailing, skiing, flying aircraft etc. Granted, I live in a rich part of the world, but at least here, there is a great emphasis on an active life, both physically and mentally (think travel, museum tours, live music and operas etc). People well into their eighties are active. This kind of vitality about life is not as common in the states in my experience.
  - 3pt14159 9y ago
    Plus they generally consume less sugar. In America sometimes it’s literally not been possible for me to order a drink that didn’t come with refined sugar. No milk, no soda water, no coconut water; just soft drinks as far as the eye can see.
    - Cthulhu_ 9y ago
      Was in the US a few times, can confirm. Mostly in conference spaces, but, things like breakfast / lunch was heavily sugared bread / pastries, mid-afternoon snack was corn chips (the name escapes me atm, doritos?) covered in sauce (which I assume must've been intended as melted cheese?), that kinda thing. A colleague ordered a salad at a restaurant, he got a huge bowl of pasta salad.
      - be_jenk 9y ago
        Nachos :) I hope if you ever have the chance, you try good "gourmet" nachos.
steinuil 9y ago
I don't think having a glass of wine at lunch or dinner can damage your health; in fact I recall reading somewhere that it's actually healthy. The problems start when you go over that.
- mateuszf 9y ago
  This is a myth, I've seen bunch of meta-analysis related to alcohol usage done recently which show that even light usage of alcohol is harmful.
- switch007 9y ago
  IIRC the amount of wine that is beneficial is very small, less than a glass and perhaps less than what many would think, and over that amount it becomes detrimental.
  - KozmoNau7 9y ago
    That depends on your definition of a glass. Most people will pour a much to large portion, if told to put a glass of wine.
- nabla9 9y ago
  As others have said, this is a myth and you are wrong. Alcohol is carcinogen and there is no reason to expect that there is safe level of consumption. There are some studies that show small cardiovascular benefits for men, they are not counting the overall mortality. Alcohol industry has very effectively propagated these studies into news. Metastudies don't show any health benefits.
  - KozmoNau7 9y ago
    It is really damn tasty, though. If you drink smaller amounts of quality stuff of course, instead of chugging shots like a college fratdouche. I'm sure Jamon Iberico Bellota is also bad for me in various ways, but it's also possibly one of the most delicious foods in the world, so I'll take whatever minor detrimental effects it may have.
- 9y ago
nabla9 9y ago
> European countries having say a beer or a glass of wine with lunch is normal. It's not a historical constant. Alcohol consumption in Europe started to skyrocket after he WWII and it peaked around 60s (25 liters of pure alcohol per person per year in France) and has gradually declined. In the last decade or so the consumption has fallen dramatically. Now it's something like 12.5 liters per year in France. Still twice the rest of the world. That 'European alcohol culture' (socially accepted constant consumption) comes with heavy cost. Most harm from alcohol use (by numbers) falls to heavy users who are are not seen as alcoholics. Differed diseases, neglect of children, fetal alcohol syndrome, etc. Some statistics from France. Prevalence of alcohol use disorders and alcohol dependence (%), 2010* first number is disorder percentage, second is alcohol dependence Males 8.8 , 4.7 Females 2.5 , 1.3 Both sexes 5.5 , 2.9 Europe 7.5 , 4.0 source: http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/global_alcohol_report/profiles/fra.pdf http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/global_alcoh...
- walshemj 9y ago
  Sounds like you are cherry picking your start date of course during ww2 wine and beer production was supressed in Europe.
  - nabla9 9y ago
    Point I was making was that the consumption and culture around alcohol is not constant. There have been fluctuations over the centuries. Youth today in Europe are realizing that constant 'moderate' consumption is not healthy and are cutting it back. They want to live long healthy lives. The older generation of functional European alcoholics is represented by Jean-Claude Juncker, The President of the European Commission. Hist typical drunk uncle behaviour will not be tolerated in the future: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPgiI46FCDU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPgiI46FCDU Pint baby from 90's is good example of how irresponsible European alcohol culture was: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GahWcnBvnSA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GahWcnBvnSA
    - KozmoNau7 9y ago
Freak_NL 9y ago
> […] in all European countries having say a beer or a glass of wine with lunch is normal. That's about as meaningful as saying that having a glass of wine or beer with lunch is normal in all countries in the world. Europe is not one homogeneous culture; even at the country-level you'll see huge discrepancies between regions. Drinking during the lunch on a working day is rare in the Netherlands (it's certainly not condoned at the office).
- whatyoucantsay 9y ago
  > That's about as meaningful as saying that having a glass of wine or beer with lunch is normal in all countries in the world. Really? It's illegal in Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Brunei, parts of India, Iran, Kuwait, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Yemen. Surely you can see some variation between different regions of the world.
  - KozmoNau7 9y ago
    That's exactly his point. It may be commonplace in Spain or France, but not in the Netherlands or Denmark. So absolutely not all of Europe.
    - whatyoucantsay 9y ago
      Where in Europe would the reaction be anywhere near as negative as in the countries listed above?
      - KozmoNau7 9y ago
        That wasn't the point. The point was that a beer or glass of wine with lunch every day isn't the norm in all of Europe. Europe is not a monoculture, as some people seem to believe.

jopsen 9y ago

Maybe 20 years ago, and maybe still in some parts of Europe, but these days most workplaces have a strict no-alcohol policy.

Improvotter 9y ago
This highly depends on the type of company you work for. There almost never is a strict no-alcohol policy in most small to medium-sized companies (who make up the majority of the workforce) in Europe.
- bsder 9y ago
  It's generally a legal thing in the US. If you have alcohol at the company, the company winds up liable if something happens. If you simply buy a round at a bar or shop, the liability is the establishment's. And, if you think the US is bad, try Canada. One of the senior VP's at a company I knew threatened to fire the director of HR because there was no beer at an all-hands meeting. :)
walshemj 9y ago
cite there may well be displinary consequences for being drunk at work but not for going out to lunch and having a drink with lunch. And whilst not as many companies have on premises bars any more go to almost every company in silicon roundabout and they will have beer in the fridge.
- Cthulhu_ 9y ago
  Maybe not, but that quickly becomes an hour long + lunch and usually people don't take more than half an hour for lunch - because if they take longer they have to work longer.
  - walshemj 9y ago
    And your point is?? As a Salaried employee (as 99.9 % of hn readers are) I quite often took more than an hour for lunch - then again I used to get into the office 20 mins earlier than almost everyone.
klmr 9y ago
> these days most workplaces have a strict no-alcohol policy I’d be curious where you’re working because this definitely isn’t true in the UK (Friday afternoon pints at work are customary), nor in France (most canteens stock wine for lunch). And in Germany, at least in academia, having a drink in the afternoon at work is also often acceptable.
- carlmr 9y ago
  In Germany all the companies I've worked in have a strict no-alcohol policy. But it's relatively recent (~10-15 years).
  - realityking 9y ago
    I work in mid-sized Berlin startup. At least among startups, beer, and sometimes wine, in the fridge is completely normal. Where I work it‘s not regularly consumed with lunch (kein Bier vor Vier applies) but it does happen on occasion.

jjkk0101 9y ago

I've recently moved to Europe and if there is something that I personally dislike is the higher amount of alcohol in both social and work life in general. At least in the country I live, it's quite accepted to mandate your day with a high volume of coffee, cigarettes then cool down with alcohol. And I am coming from NYC. edit: missing word

exergy 9y ago
The counterbalanec to it is that Europeans, generally speaking, know how to temper it with an active lifestyle. Few people I know sit at home on the weekend in front of the TV. People are out running, cyclicing, taking part in spartan races, climbing mountains, kayaking, sailing, skiing, flying aircraft etc. Granted, I live in a rich part of the world, but at least here, there is a great emphasis on an active life, both physically and mentally (think travel, museum tours, live music and operas etc). People well into their eighties are active. This kind of vitality about life is not as common in the states in my experience.
- 3pt14159 9y ago
  Plus they generally consume less sugar. In America sometimes it’s literally not been possible for me to order a drink that didn’t come with refined sugar. No milk, no soda water, no coconut water; just soft drinks as far as the eye can see.
  - Cthulhu_ 9y ago
    Was in the US a few times, can confirm. Mostly in conference spaces, but, things like breakfast / lunch was heavily sugared bread / pastries, mid-afternoon snack was corn chips (the name escapes me atm, doritos?) covered in sauce (which I assume must've been intended as melted cheese?), that kinda thing. A colleague ordered a salad at a restaurant, he got a huge bowl of pasta salad.
    - be_jenk 9y ago
      Nachos :) I hope if you ever have the chance, you try good "gourmet" nachos.

steinuil 9y ago

I don't think having a glass of wine at lunch or dinner can damage your health; in fact I recall reading somewhere that it's actually healthy. The problems start when you go over that.

mateuszf 9y ago
This is a myth, I've seen bunch of meta-analysis related to alcohol usage done recently which show that even light usage of alcohol is harmful.
switch007 9y ago
IIRC the amount of wine that is beneficial is very small, less than a glass and perhaps less than what many would think, and over that amount it becomes detrimental.
- KozmoNau7 9y ago
  That depends on your definition of a glass. Most people will pour a much to large portion, if told to put a glass of wine.
nabla9 9y ago
As others have said, this is a myth and you are wrong. Alcohol is carcinogen and there is no reason to expect that there is safe level of consumption. There are some studies that show small cardiovascular benefits for men, they are not counting the overall mortality. Alcohol industry has very effectively propagated these studies into news. Metastudies don't show any health benefits.
- KozmoNau7 9y ago
  It is really damn tasty, though. If you drink smaller amounts of quality stuff of course, instead of chugging shots like a college fratdouche. I'm sure Jamon Iberico Bellota is also bad for me in various ways, but it's also possibly one of the most delicious foods in the world, so I'll take whatever minor detrimental effects it may have.
9y ago

nabla9 9y ago

> European countries having say a beer or a glass of wine with lunch is normal. It's not a historical constant. Alcohol consumption in Europe started to skyrocket after he WWII and it peaked around 60s (25 liters of pure alcohol per person per year in France) and has gradually declined. In the last decade or so the consumption has fallen dramatically. Now it's something like 12.5 liters per year in France. Still twice the rest of the world. That 'European alcohol culture' (socially accepted constant consumption) comes with heavy cost. Most harm from alcohol use (by numbers) falls to heavy users who are are not seen as alcoholics. Differed diseases, neglect of children, fetal alcohol syndrome, etc. Some statistics from France. Prevalence of alcohol use disorders and alcohol dependence (%), 2010* first number is disorder percentage, second is alcohol dependence Males 8.8 , 4.7 Females 2.5 , 1.3 Both sexes 5.5 , 2.9 Europe 7.5 , 4.0 source: http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/global_alcohol_report/profiles/fra.pdf http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/global_alcoh...

walshemj 9y ago
Sounds like you are cherry picking your start date of course during ww2 wine and beer production was supressed in Europe.
- nabla9 9y ago
  Point I was making was that the consumption and culture around alcohol is not constant. There have been fluctuations over the centuries. Youth today in Europe are realizing that constant 'moderate' consumption is not healthy and are cutting it back. They want to live long healthy lives. The older generation of functional European alcoholics is represented by Jean-Claude Juncker, The President of the European Commission. Hist typical drunk uncle behaviour will not be tolerated in the future: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPgiI46FCDU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPgiI46FCDU Pint baby from 90's is good example of how irresponsible European alcohol culture was: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GahWcnBvnSA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GahWcnBvnSA
  - KozmoNau7 9y ago

Freak_NL 9y ago

> […] in all European countries having say a beer or a glass of wine with lunch is normal. That's about as meaningful as saying that having a glass of wine or beer with lunch is normal in all countries in the world. Europe is not one homogeneous culture; even at the country-level you'll see huge discrepancies between regions. Drinking during the lunch on a working day is rare in the Netherlands (it's certainly not condoned at the office).

whatyoucantsay 9y ago
> That's about as meaningful as saying that having a glass of wine or beer with lunch is normal in all countries in the world. Really? It's illegal in Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Brunei, parts of India, Iran, Kuwait, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Yemen. Surely you can see some variation between different regions of the world.
- KozmoNau7 9y ago
  That's exactly his point. It may be commonplace in Spain or France, but not in the Netherlands or Denmark. So absolutely not all of Europe.
  - whatyoucantsay 9y ago
    Where in Europe would the reaction be anywhere near as negative as in the countries listed above?
    - KozmoNau7 9y ago
      That wasn't the point. The point was that a beer or glass of wine with lunch every day isn't the norm in all of Europe. Europe is not a monoculture, as some people seem to believe.