6 ms·

I share your opinion about the superiority of org-mode as a means to assemble a document out of various pieces. It's not hard to show nicely formatted code, the

by todd8 9y ago

I share your opinion about the superiority of org-mode as a means to assemble a document out of various pieces. It's not hard to show nicely formatted code, the code's output, the math behind the code and perhaps a graph of the results all in a LaTeX/PDF document and or HTML. All of this can be done with a flat text file that is easy to save as a part of a project under source control. What I wonder is why are Jupyter notebooks so popular? I've tried them, but perhaps I don't understand the workflow in the way people use them. Are they intended to be works in progress where one explores ideas and looks at results? This is how I've usually used them and Mathematica's notebooks as well. For me though, my Jupyter or Mathematica notebooks end up with lots of false steps and dead-ends. To prepare a presentable form of the results I have to go back and edit the notebook to such a degree that it doesn't feel like working in a notebook as much as it is working in a complex document with a really weak set of editing tools. To be fair, I haven't used Jupyter or Mathematica for a couple of years and things may have changed. Maybe HN readers can help be understand how to more effectively use these tools.

tincholio 9y ago
> What I wonder is why are Jupyter notebooks so popular? I often wonder the same. I'm now kinda forced to use them, since they're the tool of choice in my team, but it's a major pain. I think that they're "easy" (in the way Rich Hickey describes "easy" vs "simple") to get started with (just as python, btw), but their lack of flexibility comes back to bite you sooner or later. For me, I've resorted to using a mix of EIN and ob-ipython, and then copy/pasting as needed to keep the stuff in synch with Jupyter. I'm now considering writing a simple ox-jupyter exporter, and maybe some import functionality, to avoid dealing with Jupyter directly. John Kitchin has written a basic exporter (http://kitchingroup.cheme.cmu.edu/blog/2017/01/21/Exporting-org-mode-to-Jupyter-notebooks/ http://kitchingroup.cheme.cmu.edu/blog/2017/01/21/Exporting-...), but it doesn't support inline images (it should be simple to fix this), and it doesn't really adhere to the ox- style of exports, so I think I'll probably do my own instead of adapting his (it'll be a good learning experience, for sure).
dahart 9y ago
> What I wonder is why are Jupyter notebooks so popular? How easy is it to share a Jupyter notebook with someone else, versus sharing an org-mode notebook? Think about the recipients rather than how hard it is for you. Assume the person you share with needs to be able to re-run your notebook. Assume the person you share with isn't using the same operating system that you are. Be honest and think about all the steps involved. With Jupyter, I send a single install link to Anaconda. With Emacs + org mode + python + numpy + scipy + matplotlib, I might not even know where to begin if the recipient is using Windows or Mac. The recipient needs to install emacs, and they need to know how to use Emacs. They have to know how to install python packages (and possibly a package manager), and ideally be able to use virtualenv too. If I need different libraries than what Anaconda comes with, I can put the commands in the notebook, and I won't mess up the recipient's system version of Python. With org-mode, they'd need to figure it out on their own. If I choose to use a different language than Python in my org-node notebook, the recipient will have to install that programming language and environment themselves before they can use your notebook. It's the simplicity and bundling of dependencies that make Jupyter popular. All the flexibility and power you get with org mode comes at a high price.
- tincholio 9y ago
  > How easy is it to share a Jupyter notebook with someone else, versus sharing an org-mode notebook? Well, now you're talking about a whole environment. Use docker, or VMs or whatever. There's plenty of options for doing this (we actually use Docker for Jupyter, to make sure we work off a consistent install, so I guess sharing can be non-trivial if you walk a bit off the beaten path, anyway) > If I choose to use a different language than Python in my org-node notebook, the recipient will have to install that programming language and environment themselves before they can use your notebook. Sure, and if you need to use another language from your Jupyter notebook, you can't. I don't get your point. Yes, if you need to use a tool, you need to install it. It requires a minimum of computer literacy.
  - jononor 9y ago
    There are Jupyter kernels for most languages out there. https://github.com/jupyter/jupyter/wiki/Jupyter-kernels https://github.com/jupyter/jupyter/wiki/Jupyter-kernels
paultopia 9y ago
I think of a Jupyter notebook as a REPL with superpowers. I can try code out in real-time and incrementally like a REPL, but when something breaks, the full history is right in front of me, so I can tweak something 10 lines ago and run the entire thing again like with an ordinary source file. It combines the best of both methods of programming. Seen that way, sharability is just a nice bonus. Yeah, I'd never try to turn anything directly from a jupyter notebook into a serious way of sharing research results---but for a quick and dirty "here's what I did" on a blog or email or something, or to show students, it does the job.
- taeric 9y ago
  You should give some of the emacs modes a try. Could do this sort of stuff for wire a while now. And I'm really just talking of interior buffers. Not org. Kind of odd, but repl on steroids is really just how dim the modern view of the old lisp machines is. Most of our neat repl tricks were just taken for granted on some of those machines.
  - paultopia 9y ago
    Yeah, I like the idea of that stuff, and org-babel too, actually. But the setup just seems like a bit of a bear. I use spacemacs, and the python layer for that[1] can spawn a repl and send code, but in order to do so incrementally, I have to manually select the code to send to the repl. The great thing about the cell construction in jupyter is that it supplies a natural way to organize chunks of code, you don't have to define the chunks of code before executing them. That being said, it's still pretty sweet! [1] https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs/tree/master/layers/%2Blang/python https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs/tree/master/layers/%2B...
    - tincholio 9y ago
      Maybe you should try ob-ipython. It'll spawn a Jupyter server with a python kernel, and send your source blocks as cells, and you also get to keep all the other org goodies.

by todd8 9y ago

tincholio 9y ago

> What I wonder is why are Jupyter notebooks so popular? I often wonder the same. I'm now kinda forced to use them, since they're the tool of choice in my team, but it's a major pain. I think that they're "easy" (in the way Rich Hickey describes "easy" vs "simple") to get started with (just as python, btw), but their lack of flexibility comes back to bite you sooner or later. For me, I've resorted to using a mix of EIN and ob-ipython, and then copy/pasting as needed to keep the stuff in synch with Jupyter. I'm now considering writing a simple ox-jupyter exporter, and maybe some import functionality, to avoid dealing with Jupyter directly. John Kitchin has written a basic exporter (http://kitchingroup.cheme.cmu.edu/blog/2017/01/21/Exporting-org-mode-to-Jupyter-notebooks/ http://kitchingroup.cheme.cmu.edu/blog/2017/01/21/Exporting-...), but it doesn't support inline images (it should be simple to fix this), and it doesn't really adhere to the ox- style of exports, so I think I'll probably do my own instead of adapting his (it'll be a good learning experience, for sure).

dahart 9y ago

> What I wonder is why are Jupyter notebooks so popular? How easy is it to share a Jupyter notebook with someone else, versus sharing an org-mode notebook? Think about the recipients rather than how hard it is for you. Assume the person you share with needs to be able to re-run your notebook. Assume the person you share with isn't using the same operating system that you are. Be honest and think about all the steps involved. With Jupyter, I send a single install link to Anaconda. With Emacs + org mode + python + numpy + scipy + matplotlib, I might not even know where to begin if the recipient is using Windows or Mac. The recipient needs to install emacs, and they need to know how to use Emacs. They have to know how to install python packages (and possibly a package manager), and ideally be able to use virtualenv too. If I need different libraries than what Anaconda comes with, I can put the commands in the notebook, and I won't mess up the recipient's system version of Python. With org-mode, they'd need to figure it out on their own. If I choose to use a different language than Python in my org-node notebook, the recipient will have to install that programming language and environment themselves before they can use your notebook. It's the simplicity and bundling of dependencies that make Jupyter popular. All the flexibility and power you get with org mode comes at a high price.

tincholio 9y ago
> How easy is it to share a Jupyter notebook with someone else, versus sharing an org-mode notebook? Well, now you're talking about a whole environment. Use docker, or VMs or whatever. There's plenty of options for doing this (we actually use Docker for Jupyter, to make sure we work off a consistent install, so I guess sharing can be non-trivial if you walk a bit off the beaten path, anyway) > If I choose to use a different language than Python in my org-node notebook, the recipient will have to install that programming language and environment themselves before they can use your notebook. Sure, and if you need to use another language from your Jupyter notebook, you can't. I don't get your point. Yes, if you need to use a tool, you need to install it. It requires a minimum of computer literacy.
- jononor 9y ago
  There are Jupyter kernels for most languages out there. https://github.com/jupyter/jupyter/wiki/Jupyter-kernels https://github.com/jupyter/jupyter/wiki/Jupyter-kernels

paultopia 9y ago

I think of a Jupyter notebook as a REPL with superpowers. I can try code out in real-time and incrementally like a REPL, but when something breaks, the full history is right in front of me, so I can tweak something 10 lines ago and run the entire thing again like with an ordinary source file. It combines the best of both methods of programming. Seen that way, sharability is just a nice bonus. Yeah, I'd never try to turn anything directly from a jupyter notebook into a serious way of sharing research results---but for a quick and dirty "here's what I did" on a blog or email or something, or to show students, it does the job.

taeric 9y ago
You should give some of the emacs modes a try. Could do this sort of stuff for wire a while now. And I'm really just talking of interior buffers. Not org. Kind of odd, but repl on steroids is really just how dim the modern view of the old lisp machines is. Most of our neat repl tricks were just taken for granted on some of those machines.
- paultopia 9y ago
  Yeah, I like the idea of that stuff, and org-babel too, actually. But the setup just seems like a bit of a bear. I use spacemacs, and the python layer for that[1] can spawn a repl and send code, but in order to do so incrementally, I have to manually select the code to send to the repl. The great thing about the cell construction in jupyter is that it supplies a natural way to organize chunks of code, you don't have to define the chunks of code before executing them. That being said, it's still pretty sweet! [1] https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs/tree/master/layers/%2Blang/python https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs/tree/master/layers/%2B...
  - tincholio 9y ago
    Maybe you should try ob-ipython. It'll spawn a Jupyter server with a python kernel, and send your source blocks as cells, and you also get to keep all the other org goodies.