8 ms·

Much as I would like to avoid google, the routing on OSM or graphhopper leaves a lot to be desired. There's no routing using public transport. Half the buildin

Much as I would like to avoid google, the routing on OSM or graphhopper leaves a lot to be desired. There's no routing using public transport. Half the buildings I've tried looking up either don't exist on OSM / Gnome maps, or result in an address half-way across the globe. That said, I prefer using HERE maps as it works very well in offline mode, including voice navigation, compared to anything else I've tried. The fact is that getting a global mapping and navigation solution right takes tremendous effort and money (Apple can tell you a lot about how their attempts worked out for them), and I want an application that I can trust and that just works when I'm behind the wheel or at an unfamiliar location. I'm sure OSM and alternatives will continue to improve over the years, and I'll play with them occasionally, but I will still go back to HERE, waze or google maps for the important stuff.

aesh2Xa1 9y ago
You can contribute better directions/addresses!
- diggan 9y ago
  So how do you actually do this? Can you just open up Google Maps with OSM side-by-side and copy addresses? Or you need to source it from somewhere else?
  - kuschku 9y ago
    You need to source it from somewhere else, usually your own knowledge – go to places, photograph them, add them in OSM.
    - jorvi 9y ago
      Despite what others might tell you, Google does not own addresses and associated information (opening hours, phone number etc.), so you’re free to copy them side-by-side. Uploaded photos are a no-go though. Edit: for all people blindly ramming that downvote button, see my explanation below.
      - maxerickson 9y ago
        No, don't do this. OpenStreetMap isn't an experiment in the legalities of copyrights, database rights and terms of service. Only use sources with clear provenance and clear permission.
        jorvi 9y ago
        Person A copies information on opening hours, the address, postal code, phone number etc. from the website (or even multiple sources) of a business onto Google Maps. Person B then copies this information from Google Maps to OpenStreetMap. The copyright either lies in the public domain or with the original website, not Google (Maps). This should be crystal clear and is in no way ‘an experiment’.
        maxerickson 9y ago
        Okay, so now address the Google TOS (no extraction) and database rights. Note that this is a FAQ: https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Licence_and_Legal_FAQ#Can_I_copy_from_google_or_other_similar_sources.3F https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Licence_and_Lega...
        jorvi 9y ago
        The point here becomes that the original data source(s) are freely available and often unlicensed. Same example: the local bakery is not going to license their website information (or often the site is copyrighted by the creating company). You can copy this information to OSM. You can copy this information to Google Maps and OSM at the same time. Google cannot put this information under their license with a ‘no extraction’ rule because they don’t own that information. I get that OSM has to be cautious but no sane judge would ever rule in Google’s favor in this case.
        rmc 9y ago
        Yes you can copy it into OSM from the original source. But not if it's gone through Google.
  - hanbura 9y ago
    Copying from Google Maps would violate copyright. Ideally you visit the place in question and correct them in OSM based on your observations. There are also some satellite maps that are licensed for use as OSM source (and that are often integrated in OSM editors)
    - extra88 9y ago
      Facts like street addresses are not copyrightable. The visual drawing of roads and other features on maps can be, however.
      - hanbura 9y ago
        An individual fact isn't copyrightable, a collection of facts can be. Details vary by jurisdiction, but in an international project like OSM you have to comply with the strictest jurisdiction
        extra88 9y ago
        But the subject was an individual adding a street address for a route. That's not a collection of facts.
        dingaling 9y ago
        The address alone is a single fact, but its context on a map that allows it to be found is a collection of facts As an OSM contributor in the UK myself and my peers only use clean-room data ( firsthand visit ) or data from public sources ( planning applications etc )
      - pksadiq 9y ago
        > Facts like street addresses are not copyrightable. Google says it is[0]. It might be true because when you get street address from Google, you are also getting the mark on the map for the location. Whether it's true legally or not, it's better to stay away from their data. That is, if you use Google maps, you agree their terms and thus you are not allowed to copy the data. And btw, I have seen (possibly deliberate) mistakes in street address markers in Bing maps (which is the recommended map[1] to follow for Open street map editors). So don't think that they won't find you if you copy their data). [0] https://developers.google.com/maps/terms#6-googles-proprietary-rights https://developers.google.com/maps/terms#6-googles-proprieta... (The definition of Content is explained in the following section, which says "... and places data (including business listings). ") [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bing_Maps https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bing_Maps
  - Krasnol 9y ago
    There are also nice tools like this: https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete It's quite easy to use and if you don't plan to draw new roads this is the fastest way to fill gaps wherever you are. The more advanced app would be this: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vespucci https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vespucci Though I don't have experience with it.
- brudgers 9y ago
  When a person is lost or misdirected, the priority is usually figuring out how to get where they wanted to go. Fixing the map is a low priority. Learning the complexities of the OSM API's and toolings is even lower. The process is complicated with many moving parts and tailored toward commercial level development not end map users. OSM, like any sophisticated database is complex and requires a substantial degree of technical commitment.
  - maxerickson 9y ago
    Adding a couple addresses using the editor built into the website should take 15-20 minutes (the first time, to register and do the walkthrough and such, just a couple minutes after that). No need to muck directly with APIs and so on to make a quick contribution.
    - brudgers 9y ago
      The structure of these projects is a long way from abstractions that deal with "Oh Shit, I'm lost and I'm late" well. The projects are largely inward focused and there's a lot of developers talking among themselves instead. The Open Street Maps page has no "Fix an Error" link. It has Help. Typing in an address and getting irrelevant data isn't a user error. It's a bug. Help is the wrong abstraction. Gnome Maps is a layer of abstraction on top of that. Not only is there no "Fix an Error" link, there's no clear path for an end user reach the Beginner's page in the OSM Wiki explaining how to edit data.
      - squiggleblaz 9y ago
        Hear hear. When I'm on a computer I usually go to Google because if I go to OSM and type in a nearby major road, it gives me a list of addresses. And the one I want is probably thirtieth on the list and has a form that is obscure. If you can't search for street names in OSM, it shouln't let me try. Instead of giving me useless results, it should direct me to how I can obtain useful results. "Commercial Road" - no relevant results in two pages. "Commercial Road malvern" - no results at all. It turns out in Malvern, Commercial Rd is called Malvern Rd. It seems cruel that OSM requires me to tell it exactly what I'm searching for and to get it right. Giving related information to help the search doesn't help it find the location. "Sydney Road" - no relevant results. "Sydney Road brunswick" - finally, the first result is listed as "Sydney Road, Brunswick, City of Moreland, Greater Melbourne, Victoria, 3052, Australia", but it's death by too much information. (a) It's buried in a list of very similar results and I can't quite be sure the one I got is the one I want - this becomes a bigger problem with a minor street. (b) who cares that it's in the city of Moreland? If you're going to list the local administrative district name, why not also the state electoral division? Address are place names, and "City of Moreland" simply isn't a place name. It's the name of the territory controlled by the Moreland City Council, but it's not a placename. Combining (a) and (b), take a look at "Sydney Road, Sparta Place, Brunswick, City of Moreland, Greater Melbourne, Victoria, 3039, Australia". What's that even supposed to mean? I cry. Google suffers the problem in the opposite way, normalising addresses to the most obscure and ambiguous form they could find, preferring road numbers to names, and using "Melbourne" instead of the suburb name. But at least it finds the place I'm after. OSM is barely useable. Not for want of data, but because it just doesn't care to tell me how to find what I'm looking for. It's exhausting. OSM is useless for practical purposes. I want to use it for a variety of reasons, but I can't.
- afuchs 9y ago
  I've tried fixing some obvious errors on OSM only to have my changes reverted. The project isn't exactly welcoming to new contributors.
  - lucb1e 9y ago
    I've never heard this before. My edits certainly aren't rejected, and aside from a few top contributors I doubt anyone recognizes usernames (so I nor others would have such bias). It's extremely rare that I have to undo some of someone's work because there are real mistakes. Could you link the changeset perhaps? I'm curious now.
  - a3_nm 9y ago
    Could you please provide a link to the changes that you had made? This would be useful for OSM editors to understand what has gone wrong.
- a3_nm 9y ago
  The parent comment was also complaining about the lack of public transport routing, and this is not something that you can fix easily, as far as I know: there is no software support for public transportation timetables/routing as far as I know. (Edit: in fact there is work in progress about this in Gnome Maps https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-maps/issues/25 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-maps/issues/25)
- jrnichols 9y ago
  I use the "Report an issue" feature with Apple Maps quite often, and I've noticed that they've become a lot faster with updating things. even things such as "pin in the wrong location." I've added new businesses and found them on the map just a few days later. Apple Maps has improved so much. but it's only as good as the data it's fed.
my123 9y ago
Even Apple struggles a bit with their maps despite financial resources. MS got help from HERE to get good maps... Building these things is hard
- astrange 9y ago
  Every time someone mentions HERE, I check Tokyo and see that it's still entirely missing.
movedx 9y ago
Have you tried asking people for directions? I find talking to other people and asking for directions is better because you (sometimes get shortcuts and) meet new people, find out interesting facts, get updates like, "Yeah it's over there but it's closed due to flooding" or, "over there mate but if you go around the back you'll skip the queue." Aint no online system telling you those gems. I've also found reading a static map and or remembering the directions given to me, or discovering them through exploration, solidifies the knowledge and I remember them long term. We rely too much on GPS.
- dominotw 9y ago
  There are no people on the streets in USA. This technique works in India though.
  - nickserv 9y ago
    It works in India, but you need to ask at least 5 people and go with the majority opinion ;-)
    - dman 9y ago
      But you just made 5 new friends for life :)
      - TheDong 9y ago
        And if you look rich enough, "for life" is about another 20 minutes.
- sn 9y ago
  Unfortunately asking for directions is not an option for everyone, to put it lightly. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/04/15/602598119/black-teenager-shot-at-after-asking-for-directions https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/04/15/602598119...
  - 9y ago
nerdponx 9y ago
The biggest problem with these open source maps is that there is no painless way to contribute updates.
- jmkb 9y ago
  Updating OpenStreetMap is incredibly easy. Create an account, click edit (iD, the javascript-based map editor, is intuitive and highly functional), make changes, click "save." The hard part is learning how to map well. The documentation is fragmented: There's a multi-language wiki with a lot of inconsistencies in the translations. There are dozens of mailing lists for various regions and sub-topics. There are IRC channels. There's a web forum. There's a subreddit. There's a Stack-Overflow-style Q&A help site. There are Youtube videos. And you can often find a different answer to a simple question in each of these resources! A little chaotic. But I wouldn't quite call it painful.
  - alsetmusic 9y ago
    > Updating OpenStreetMap is incredibly easy. Create an account… Creating an account is a pain point for some people. I notify companies and individuals all the time about typos, dead links, bugs, etc. In any instance where I am not an established user, the process halts when I have to create an account. I’m giving freely of my time and knowledge; the process for me to do so should be as close to effortless as possible.
    - jmkb 9y ago
      > Creating an account is a pain point for some people. Fair enough. And even fairer, if you're not an experienced mapper you may easily be able to spot a problem but not be sure how exactly to fix it. OSM has you covered -- right-click the map and select "Add a note here". Add a quick note with all relevant info. It won't appear on the map, but mappers who are working in the area will (hopefully) see it and fix it. Not sure if Gnome Maps implements this functionality, but most phone-based OSM clients do.
    - craftyguy 9y ago
      It's literally like wikipedia. Anyone can contribute, provided they make an account. There has to be some accountability with edits, hence the requirement. Your dream requires accepting anonymous edits, which opens the doors wide open to abuse.
probably_wrong 9y ago
> There's no routing using public transport. At the same time, I found OSM much more reliable when it comes to finding public transport stops in small cities. True, it's not great when it comes to "how do I get to X", but it's great for "what's the closest public transport stop near X" in cities that Google Maps doesn't/won't support.
romanovcode 9y ago
> Apple can tell you a lot about how their attempts worked out for them Worked out pretty fine in the end if you ask me. I'm using apple maps all the time and it works just fine.

aesh2Xa1 9y ago

You can contribute better directions/addresses!

diggan 9y ago
So how do you actually do this? Can you just open up Google Maps with OSM side-by-side and copy addresses? Or you need to source it from somewhere else?
- kuschku 9y ago
  You need to source it from somewhere else, usually your own knowledge – go to places, photograph them, add them in OSM.
  - jorvi 9y ago
    Despite what others might tell you, Google does not own addresses and associated information (opening hours, phone number etc.), so you’re free to copy them side-by-side. Uploaded photos are a no-go though. Edit: for all people blindly ramming that downvote button, see my explanation below.
    - maxerickson 9y ago
      No, don't do this. OpenStreetMap isn't an experiment in the legalities of copyrights, database rights and terms of service. Only use sources with clear provenance and clear permission.
      - jorvi 9y ago
        Person A copies information on opening hours, the address, postal code, phone number etc. from the website (or even multiple sources) of a business onto Google Maps. Person B then copies this information from Google Maps to OpenStreetMap. The copyright either lies in the public domain or with the original website, not Google (Maps). This should be crystal clear and is in no way ‘an experiment’.
        maxerickson 9y ago
        Okay, so now address the Google TOS (no extraction) and database rights. Note that this is a FAQ: https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Licence_and_Legal_FAQ#Can_I_copy_from_google_or_other_similar_sources.3F https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Licence_and_Lega...
        jorvi 9y ago
        The point here becomes that the original data source(s) are freely available and often unlicensed. Same example: the local bakery is not going to license their website information (or often the site is copyrighted by the creating company). You can copy this information to OSM. You can copy this information to Google Maps and OSM at the same time. Google cannot put this information under their license with a ‘no extraction’ rule because they don’t own that information. I get that OSM has to be cautious but no sane judge would ever rule in Google’s favor in this case.
        rmc 9y ago
        Yes you can copy it into OSM from the original source. But not if it's gone through Google.
- hanbura 9y ago
  Copying from Google Maps would violate copyright. Ideally you visit the place in question and correct them in OSM based on your observations. There are also some satellite maps that are licensed for use as OSM source (and that are often integrated in OSM editors)
  - extra88 9y ago
    Facts like street addresses are not copyrightable. The visual drawing of roads and other features on maps can be, however.
    - hanbura 9y ago
      An individual fact isn't copyrightable, a collection of facts can be. Details vary by jurisdiction, but in an international project like OSM you have to comply with the strictest jurisdiction
      - extra88 9y ago
        But the subject was an individual adding a street address for a route. That's not a collection of facts.
        dingaling 9y ago
        The address alone is a single fact, but its context on a map that allows it to be found is a collection of facts As an OSM contributor in the UK myself and my peers only use clean-room data ( firsthand visit ) or data from public sources ( planning applications etc )
    - pksadiq 9y ago
      > Facts like street addresses are not copyrightable. Google says it is[0]. It might be true because when you get street address from Google, you are also getting the mark on the map for the location. Whether it's true legally or not, it's better to stay away from their data. That is, if you use Google maps, you agree their terms and thus you are not allowed to copy the data. And btw, I have seen (possibly deliberate) mistakes in street address markers in Bing maps (which is the recommended map[1] to follow for Open street map editors). So don't think that they won't find you if you copy their data). [0] https://developers.google.com/maps/terms#6-googles-proprietary-rights https://developers.google.com/maps/terms#6-googles-proprieta... (The definition of Content is explained in the following section, which says "... and places data (including business listings). ") [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bing_Maps https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bing_Maps
- Krasnol 9y ago
  There are also nice tools like this: https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete It's quite easy to use and if you don't plan to draw new roads this is the fastest way to fill gaps wherever you are. The more advanced app would be this: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vespucci https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vespucci Though I don't have experience with it.
brudgers 9y ago
When a person is lost or misdirected, the priority is usually figuring out how to get where they wanted to go. Fixing the map is a low priority. Learning the complexities of the OSM API's and toolings is even lower. The process is complicated with many moving parts and tailored toward commercial level development not end map users. OSM, like any sophisticated database is complex and requires a substantial degree of technical commitment.
- maxerickson 9y ago
  Adding a couple addresses using the editor built into the website should take 15-20 minutes (the first time, to register and do the walkthrough and such, just a couple minutes after that). No need to muck directly with APIs and so on to make a quick contribution.
  - brudgers 9y ago
    The structure of these projects is a long way from abstractions that deal with "Oh Shit, I'm lost and I'm late" well. The projects are largely inward focused and there's a lot of developers talking among themselves instead. The Open Street Maps page has no "Fix an Error" link. It has Help. Typing in an address and getting irrelevant data isn't a user error. It's a bug. Help is the wrong abstraction. Gnome Maps is a layer of abstraction on top of that. Not only is there no "Fix an Error" link, there's no clear path for an end user reach the Beginner's page in the OSM Wiki explaining how to edit data.
    - squiggleblaz 9y ago
      Hear hear. When I'm on a computer I usually go to Google because if I go to OSM and type in a nearby major road, it gives me a list of addresses. And the one I want is probably thirtieth on the list and has a form that is obscure. If you can't search for street names in OSM, it shouln't let me try. Instead of giving me useless results, it should direct me to how I can obtain useful results. "Commercial Road" - no relevant results in two pages. "Commercial Road malvern" - no results at all. It turns out in Malvern, Commercial Rd is called Malvern Rd. It seems cruel that OSM requires me to tell it exactly what I'm searching for and to get it right. Giving related information to help the search doesn't help it find the location. "Sydney Road" - no relevant results. "Sydney Road brunswick" - finally, the first result is listed as "Sydney Road, Brunswick, City of Moreland, Greater Melbourne, Victoria, 3052, Australia", but it's death by too much information. (a) It's buried in a list of very similar results and I can't quite be sure the one I got is the one I want - this becomes a bigger problem with a minor street. (b) who cares that it's in the city of Moreland? If you're going to list the local administrative district name, why not also the state electoral division? Address are place names, and "City of Moreland" simply isn't a place name. It's the name of the territory controlled by the Moreland City Council, but it's not a placename. Combining (a) and (b), take a look at "Sydney Road, Sparta Place, Brunswick, City of Moreland, Greater Melbourne, Victoria, 3039, Australia". What's that even supposed to mean? I cry. Google suffers the problem in the opposite way, normalising addresses to the most obscure and ambiguous form they could find, preferring road numbers to names, and using "Melbourne" instead of the suburb name. But at least it finds the place I'm after. OSM is barely useable. Not for want of data, but because it just doesn't care to tell me how to find what I'm looking for. It's exhausting. OSM is useless for practical purposes. I want to use it for a variety of reasons, but I can't.
afuchs 9y ago
I've tried fixing some obvious errors on OSM only to have my changes reverted. The project isn't exactly welcoming to new contributors.
- lucb1e 9y ago
  I've never heard this before. My edits certainly aren't rejected, and aside from a few top contributors I doubt anyone recognizes usernames (so I nor others would have such bias). It's extremely rare that I have to undo some of someone's work because there are real mistakes. Could you link the changeset perhaps? I'm curious now.
- a3_nm 9y ago
  Could you please provide a link to the changes that you had made? This would be useful for OSM editors to understand what has gone wrong.
a3_nm 9y ago
The parent comment was also complaining about the lack of public transport routing, and this is not something that you can fix easily, as far as I know: there is no software support for public transportation timetables/routing as far as I know. (Edit: in fact there is work in progress about this in Gnome Maps https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-maps/issues/25 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-maps/issues/25)
jrnichols 9y ago
I use the "Report an issue" feature with Apple Maps quite often, and I've noticed that they've become a lot faster with updating things. even things such as "pin in the wrong location." I've added new businesses and found them on the map just a few days later. Apple Maps has improved so much. but it's only as good as the data it's fed.

my123 9y ago

Even Apple struggles a bit with their maps despite financial resources. MS got help from HERE to get good maps... Building these things is hard

astrange 9y ago
Every time someone mentions HERE, I check Tokyo and see that it's still entirely missing.

movedx 9y ago

Have you tried asking people for directions? I find talking to other people and asking for directions is better because you (sometimes get shortcuts and) meet new people, find out interesting facts, get updates like, "Yeah it's over there but it's closed due to flooding" or, "over there mate but if you go around the back you'll skip the queue." Aint no online system telling you those gems. I've also found reading a static map and or remembering the directions given to me, or discovering them through exploration, solidifies the knowledge and I remember them long term. We rely too much on GPS.

dominotw 9y ago
There are no people on the streets in USA. This technique works in India though.
- nickserv 9y ago
  It works in India, but you need to ask at least 5 people and go with the majority opinion ;-)
  - dman 9y ago
    But you just made 5 new friends for life :)
    - TheDong 9y ago
      And if you look rich enough, "for life" is about another 20 minutes.
sn 9y ago
Unfortunately asking for directions is not an option for everyone, to put it lightly. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/04/15/602598119/black-teenager-shot-at-after-asking-for-directions https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/04/15/602598119...
- 9y ago

nerdponx 9y ago

The biggest problem with these open source maps is that there is no painless way to contribute updates.

jmkb 9y ago
Updating OpenStreetMap is incredibly easy. Create an account, click edit (iD, the javascript-based map editor, is intuitive and highly functional), make changes, click "save." The hard part is learning how to map well. The documentation is fragmented: There's a multi-language wiki with a lot of inconsistencies in the translations. There are dozens of mailing lists for various regions and sub-topics. There are IRC channels. There's a web forum. There's a subreddit. There's a Stack-Overflow-style Q&A help site. There are Youtube videos. And you can often find a different answer to a simple question in each of these resources! A little chaotic. But I wouldn't quite call it painful.
- alsetmusic 9y ago
  > Updating OpenStreetMap is incredibly easy. Create an account… Creating an account is a pain point for some people. I notify companies and individuals all the time about typos, dead links, bugs, etc. In any instance where I am not an established user, the process halts when I have to create an account. I’m giving freely of my time and knowledge; the process for me to do so should be as close to effortless as possible.
  - jmkb 9y ago
    > Creating an account is a pain point for some people. Fair enough. And even fairer, if you're not an experienced mapper you may easily be able to spot a problem but not be sure how exactly to fix it. OSM has you covered -- right-click the map and select "Add a note here". Add a quick note with all relevant info. It won't appear on the map, but mappers who are working in the area will (hopefully) see it and fix it. Not sure if Gnome Maps implements this functionality, but most phone-based OSM clients do.
  - craftyguy 9y ago
    It's literally like wikipedia. Anyone can contribute, provided they make an account. There has to be some accountability with edits, hence the requirement. Your dream requires accepting anonymous edits, which opens the doors wide open to abuse.

probably_wrong 9y ago

> There's no routing using public transport. At the same time, I found OSM much more reliable when it comes to finding public transport stops in small cities. True, it's not great when it comes to "how do I get to X", but it's great for "what's the closest public transport stop near X" in cities that Google Maps doesn't/won't support.

romanovcode 9y ago

> Apple can tell you a lot about how their attempts worked out for them Worked out pretty fine in the end if you ask me. I'm using apple maps all the time and it works just fine.