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I'd be more inclined to fall in line with their data collection practices if dental insurance wasn't so utterly useless as an insurance product. It almost alwa

I'd be more inclined to fall in line with their data collection practices if dental insurance wasn't so utterly useless as an insurance product. It almost always makes sense to save the premium payments up and pay out of pocket for any dental services you need.

dawhizkid 9y ago
I would definitely say that about vision, not so much dental. I don't think most people realize how linked dental health is to physical health and wellbeing...plenty of studies on ties of poor dental hygiene and cardiovascular disease. If anything I'd advocate to require health insurance companies to bundle adult dental care instead of it being a separate insurance product.
- eloff 9y ago
  None of which has any bearing on whether dental insurance is worthwhile vs paying out of pocket.
  - dawhizkid 9y ago
    Are you speaking as a consumer? Dental insurance is really cheap...it's like $300/year. Many employers cover all or most of this cost if you get it through a company. If you pay 100% of your premium and have 2 regular cleanings, it's basically a payment plan. If you require any other services (deep cleaning for example) then it would definitely be cheaper to pay for insurance than OOP.
    - TylerE 9y ago
      I'm guessing you're not in the US? Here, the polices have VERY low lifetime caps. One root canal can wipe it out. Other than that, it's basically prepaying for an annual cleaning.
      - dawhizkid 9y ago
        Yes I'm in the US. Lifetime caps are generally for ortho and implants. I've not heard of a lifetime cap on root canals but maybe this varies by insurance company. Again, yes if you only get cleanings then it's a payment plan...from a customer POV why would you not prefer a 0% interest payment plan with added protection in case you need literally any other dental service vs paying OOP for 2 cleanings a year?
        bdcravens 9y ago
        > from a customer POV why would you not prefer a 0% interest payment plan with added protection in case you need literally any other dental service vs paying OOP for 2 cleanings a year? I also see it like retirement savings. You're more likely to forgo the expense if it hasn't already been taken out
      - ghaff 9y ago
        It varies. I have calendar year maximums and some other limits but no lifetime maximum. This is US. (ADDED: Oh, right. I think there is an ortho lifetime max.)
      - bdcravens 9y ago
        My plan covers basic work (which includes root canals) at 80%, major work (like implants and crowns) at 50%, up to $1500/year. This is at a cost of about $350/year, so it's definitely more than just low-cost cleanings. (I can't find information on limits, but I'm not sure they apply, since I pay any amount over the 80% or $1500 a year)
        nickjj 9y ago
        The problem with major work is it's substantially more than $1,500. A single dental implant from end to end in the US is usually in the $4,000 to $5,000 range.
        bdcravens 9y ago
        Of course. Unless you get a discount for not having insurance, that's $1500 (minus annual premiums) less than you would have spent.
  - bdcravens 9y ago
    If all you do is cleaning, probably not, more so if you aren't diligent about your visits. However, if you know you need work done, it is cost effective over paying full price. (many plans cover $500-$1500 of work each year, and cost an individual about $300-400/year)
    - eloff 9y ago
      That's rubbish. How do you think their business model works? They make enough to pay your procedure, plus all their overhead, plus return a profit to their shareholders - all out of your premiums. Unless you have reason to believe you're going to require many times more procedures than the average person, it's a waste of money. With health insurance it's very different, because if you get unlucky it could bankrupt you. A $500-$1500 dental bill is only marginally more than a years premiums, and you won't be needing to pay that every year. It only makes sense if your employer pays it as a benefit. EDIT I missed the "if you know you need work done" part, or it was added afterward. Clearly if there's no limitations on pre-existing conditions AND no requirement that you maintain the policy for at least N years AND you know you need work done, then it may well make sense temporarily. It's just math, and you have to do the math and read all the fine print. But without that asymmetric "insider knowledge" that you need work, or that you will need substantially more work than the average, you're expected return will be negative.
      - kbutler 9y ago
        bdcravens said "if you know you need work done, it is cost effective over paying full price" and eloff tried to contradict by saying it's rubbish unless you know you need more than average. Agreed, dental insurance tends to be more like pre-payment, but if you do the math and it works out (and there aren't limitations on pre-existing conditions!) it can be a good option even on an individual basis.
        bdcravens 9y ago
        Worth noting that unlike health insurance, there's no penalty for not having insurance. Unless you're in pain, you have an idea what your procedures over the next year will look like so you could game the system (though it looks like dental policies are adjusting to that strategy, with increasing payouts or requiring you to wait 12+ months for certain kinds of work)
  - dawhizkid 9y ago
    If you had the choice between a 0% interest payment plan ($300/12 mo) for 2 cleanings with added 80-90% discounts for literally any other dental service vs paying OOP for 2 $150 cleanings with no discounts for anything else you might need the rest of the year why would you choose to pay OOP even if your employer does not pay for dental insurance? I fail to see how this is a raw financial deal for consumers.
ghaff 9y ago
It primarily makes sense as a benefit to employees because they don't generally get taxed on it. But because it's much closer to pre-paying than actual insurance I'm guessing it doesn't usually make sense for individuals to buy it. ADDED: Interesting. It doesn't seem to be that expensive for an individual to purchase. (Maybe $400 or so.) I guess the theory is that most people just end up getting a cleaning or two and caps on policies reduce the amount you can get paid back.
- kbutler 9y ago
  Dental insurance actually tends to have high "co-insurance" amounts (e.g., you pay half the cost of the crown), so consumers feel the price pressure.
  - ghaff 9y ago
    Right. It also means dental insurance is pretty much the opposite of insurance that covers you against catastrophic costs. There's general pricing transparency in dentistry. You can have rational discussions with your dentist over the relative price effectiveness and tradeoff of different approaches--as well as scheduling things based on how much you have left on FSAs and insurance.
- ams6110 9y ago
  In my experience, it's worth it if you can get it at a good price e.g. through a good employee benefit plan. Especially for a family with a couple of kids, think about paying out-of-pocket for 8 to 10 cleanings a year, plus cavities, the occasional broken tooth, etc. Regular dental care is actually pretty important, as untreated tooth decay can cause a number of other health problems.
  - ghaff 9y ago
    Through an employer plan, it's usually pretty much a no brainer. I'm admittedly a bit older but I get far more out of my dental plan every year than I have to contribute through the occasional crown, etc.
indentedDental 9y ago
So, dentists are usually something of a mom and pop kind of office. Maybe a few dentists strike a friendship in college, and form a practice together, or a professional merger occurs in a network of colleagues sometimes, but maybe not. If you know your dentist well enough, e.g. they are family, insurance is the sole form of payment, and you might enjoy a 100% out of pocket discount. In this way, dentists still get paid for complex, specialized medical tasks on the people that know them well, and trust them implicitly. Of course, there’s that whole thing about the hypocratic oath, that doctors are a bit more strict about, and operating on family members, separating business from family, and of course, from an accounting and auditing perspective, family discounts need to be tracked properly. But friends of the family and family members of dentists have something closer to an insiders perspective on dental care.
fred_is_fred 9y ago
Even though the limits are paltry - the negotiated prices are worth it. I had to do two tooth removals and implants and blew through my limit basically instantly but still paid less overall due to a negotiated rate.
Broken_Hippo 9y ago
When I lived in the states, dental insurance was always cheap. Really cheap. $5-$10 per month. I think it generally included a couple of cleanings per year and an xray, plus a discount on other sorts of things. It isn't perfect, mind you, but it sure beats paying for dental out-of-pocket when you make $10-12/hr. It sure beat paying for wisdom tooth removal out of pocket, especially when one has to go to an oral surgeon to deal with complicated removals. And so on. It never actually made sense to go without it because it was so cheap, more so at a low wage. It wasn't that you could afford the treatments so much, but rather that when things went horribly wrong you didn't have to be in pain so long.

dawhizkid 9y ago

I would definitely say that about vision, not so much dental. I don't think most people realize how linked dental health is to physical health and wellbeing...plenty of studies on ties of poor dental hygiene and cardiovascular disease. If anything I'd advocate to require health insurance companies to bundle adult dental care instead of it being a separate insurance product.

eloff 9y ago
None of which has any bearing on whether dental insurance is worthwhile vs paying out of pocket.
- dawhizkid 9y ago
  Are you speaking as a consumer? Dental insurance is really cheap...it's like $300/year. Many employers cover all or most of this cost if you get it through a company. If you pay 100% of your premium and have 2 regular cleanings, it's basically a payment plan. If you require any other services (deep cleaning for example) then it would definitely be cheaper to pay for insurance than OOP.
  - TylerE 9y ago
    I'm guessing you're not in the US? Here, the polices have VERY low lifetime caps. One root canal can wipe it out. Other than that, it's basically prepaying for an annual cleaning.
    - dawhizkid 9y ago
      Yes I'm in the US. Lifetime caps are generally for ortho and implants. I've not heard of a lifetime cap on root canals but maybe this varies by insurance company. Again, yes if you only get cleanings then it's a payment plan...from a customer POV why would you not prefer a 0% interest payment plan with added protection in case you need literally any other dental service vs paying OOP for 2 cleanings a year?
      - bdcravens 9y ago
        > from a customer POV why would you not prefer a 0% interest payment plan with added protection in case you need literally any other dental service vs paying OOP for 2 cleanings a year? I also see it like retirement savings. You're more likely to forgo the expense if it hasn't already been taken out
    - ghaff 9y ago
      It varies. I have calendar year maximums and some other limits but no lifetime maximum. This is US. (ADDED: Oh, right. I think there is an ortho lifetime max.)
    - bdcravens 9y ago
      My plan covers basic work (which includes root canals) at 80%, major work (like implants and crowns) at 50%, up to $1500/year. This is at a cost of about $350/year, so it's definitely more than just low-cost cleanings. (I can't find information on limits, but I'm not sure they apply, since I pay any amount over the 80% or $1500 a year)
      - nickjj 9y ago
        The problem with major work is it's substantially more than $1,500. A single dental implant from end to end in the US is usually in the $4,000 to $5,000 range.
        bdcravens 9y ago
        Of course. Unless you get a discount for not having insurance, that's $1500 (minus annual premiums) less than you would have spent.
- bdcravens 9y ago
  If all you do is cleaning, probably not, more so if you aren't diligent about your visits. However, if you know you need work done, it is cost effective over paying full price. (many plans cover $500-$1500 of work each year, and cost an individual about $300-400/year)
  - eloff 9y ago
    That's rubbish. How do you think their business model works? They make enough to pay your procedure, plus all their overhead, plus return a profit to their shareholders - all out of your premiums. Unless you have reason to believe you're going to require many times more procedures than the average person, it's a waste of money. With health insurance it's very different, because if you get unlucky it could bankrupt you. A $500-$1500 dental bill is only marginally more than a years premiums, and you won't be needing to pay that every year. It only makes sense if your employer pays it as a benefit. EDIT I missed the "if you know you need work done" part, or it was added afterward. Clearly if there's no limitations on pre-existing conditions AND no requirement that you maintain the policy for at least N years AND you know you need work done, then it may well make sense temporarily. It's just math, and you have to do the math and read all the fine print. But without that asymmetric "insider knowledge" that you need work, or that you will need substantially more work than the average, you're expected return will be negative.
    - kbutler 9y ago
      bdcravens said "if you know you need work done, it is cost effective over paying full price" and eloff tried to contradict by saying it's rubbish unless you know you need more than average. Agreed, dental insurance tends to be more like pre-payment, but if you do the math and it works out (and there aren't limitations on pre-existing conditions!) it can be a good option even on an individual basis.
      - bdcravens 9y ago
        Worth noting that unlike health insurance, there's no penalty for not having insurance. Unless you're in pain, you have an idea what your procedures over the next year will look like so you could game the system (though it looks like dental policies are adjusting to that strategy, with increasing payouts or requiring you to wait 12+ months for certain kinds of work)
- dawhizkid 9y ago
  If you had the choice between a 0% interest payment plan ($300/12 mo) for 2 cleanings with added 80-90% discounts for literally any other dental service vs paying OOP for 2 $150 cleanings with no discounts for anything else you might need the rest of the year why would you choose to pay OOP even if your employer does not pay for dental insurance? I fail to see how this is a raw financial deal for consumers.

ghaff 9y ago

It primarily makes sense as a benefit to employees because they don't generally get taxed on it. But because it's much closer to pre-paying than actual insurance I'm guessing it doesn't usually make sense for individuals to buy it. ADDED: Interesting. It doesn't seem to be that expensive for an individual to purchase. (Maybe $400 or so.) I guess the theory is that most people just end up getting a cleaning or two and caps on policies reduce the amount you can get paid back.

kbutler 9y ago
Dental insurance actually tends to have high "co-insurance" amounts (e.g., you pay half the cost of the crown), so consumers feel the price pressure.
- ghaff 9y ago
  Right. It also means dental insurance is pretty much the opposite of insurance that covers you against catastrophic costs. There's general pricing transparency in dentistry. You can have rational discussions with your dentist over the relative price effectiveness and tradeoff of different approaches--as well as scheduling things based on how much you have left on FSAs and insurance.
ams6110 9y ago
In my experience, it's worth it if you can get it at a good price e.g. through a good employee benefit plan. Especially for a family with a couple of kids, think about paying out-of-pocket for 8 to 10 cleanings a year, plus cavities, the occasional broken tooth, etc. Regular dental care is actually pretty important, as untreated tooth decay can cause a number of other health problems.
- ghaff 9y ago
  Through an employer plan, it's usually pretty much a no brainer. I'm admittedly a bit older but I get far more out of my dental plan every year than I have to contribute through the occasional crown, etc.

indentedDental 9y ago

So, dentists are usually something of a mom and pop kind of office. Maybe a few dentists strike a friendship in college, and form a practice together, or a professional merger occurs in a network of colleagues sometimes, but maybe not. If you know your dentist well enough, e.g. they are family, insurance is the sole form of payment, and you might enjoy a 100% out of pocket discount. In this way, dentists still get paid for complex, specialized medical tasks on the people that know them well, and trust them implicitly. Of course, there’s that whole thing about the hypocratic oath, that doctors are a bit more strict about, and operating on family members, separating business from family, and of course, from an accounting and auditing perspective, family discounts need to be tracked properly. But friends of the family and family members of dentists have something closer to an insiders perspective on dental care.

fred_is_fred 9y ago

Even though the limits are paltry - the negotiated prices are worth it. I had to do two tooth removals and implants and blew through my limit basically instantly but still paid less overall due to a negotiated rate.

Broken_Hippo 9y ago

When I lived in the states, dental insurance was always cheap. Really cheap. $5-$10 per month. I think it generally included a couple of cleanings per year and an xray, plus a discount on other sorts of things. It isn't perfect, mind you, but it sure beats paying for dental out-of-pocket when you make $10-12/hr. It sure beat paying for wisdom tooth removal out of pocket, especially when one has to go to an oral surgeon to deal with complicated removals. And so on. It never actually made sense to go without it because it was so cheap, more so at a low wage. It wasn't that you could afford the treatments so much, but rather that when things went horribly wrong you didn't have to be in pain so long.