4 ms·

What a great last paragraph: "The tragedy of the cybernetic revolution, which had two phases, the computer science side and the systems theory side, has been t

by kawera 9y ago

What a great last paragraph: "The tragedy of the cybernetic revolution, which had two phases, the computer science side and the systems theory side, has been the neglect of the systems theory side of it. We chose marketable gadgets in preference to a deeper understanding of the world we live in."

jpswade 9y ago
Interesting. The people who know how to make marketable gadgets must understand systems theory in order to sell it. It's interesting because it's about culture and culture is a system of ideas, rituals and behaviours. We are living in a cybernetic culture right now, so what's next? That's what we need to understand. What do we want?
carapace 9y ago
Yes! I have been bewildered as to why Cybernetics has been so woefully neglected. "Introduction to Cybernetics" is available as a free PDF. (Linked from this page: http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/ASHBBOOK.html http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/ASHBBOOK.html ) Cybernetics is formally beyond logic. It deals with circular loops in causality in the most general yet concrete sense. One way I try to describe it (to an audience like HN readers) is that Information Theory is about making the real world behave like symbols, while Cybernetics is about making symbols behave like the real world.
- pm90 9y ago
  This sounds very interesting. I don't think I ever encountered Cybernetics in college nor in all these years as a professional software engineer. Any more resources apart from the linked pdf that you would recommend, perhaps tailored to someone with a CS background? (I'm reading through the pdf, just wanted to see if there were other treatments on this topic)
  - carapace 9y ago
    "Introduction to Cybernetics" is technical and very much in the spirit of CS. A lot of what gets called "cybernetics" tends to be kind of "fluffy" and I personally avoid that stuff. I'd recommend Norbert Wiener's "Cybernetics: Or Control and Communication in the Animal and the Machine". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norbert_Wiener https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norbert_Wiener https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetics:_Or_Control_and_Communication_in_the_Animal_and_the_Machine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetics:_Or_Control_and_Co... And "Behavior, Purpose and Teleology" by Rosenblueth, Wiener and Bigelow: http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/books/Wiener-teleology.pdf http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/books/Wiener-teleology.pdf

by kawera 9y ago

jpswade 9y ago

Interesting. The people who know how to make marketable gadgets must understand systems theory in order to sell it. It's interesting because it's about culture and culture is a system of ideas, rituals and behaviours. We are living in a cybernetic culture right now, so what's next? That's what we need to understand. What do we want?

carapace 9y ago

Yes! I have been bewildered as to why Cybernetics has been so woefully neglected. "Introduction to Cybernetics" is available as a free PDF. (Linked from this page: http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/ASHBBOOK.html http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/ASHBBOOK.html ) Cybernetics is formally beyond logic. It deals with circular loops in causality in the most general yet concrete sense. One way I try to describe it (to an audience like HN readers) is that Information Theory is about making the real world behave like symbols, while Cybernetics is about making symbols behave like the real world.

pm90 9y ago
This sounds very interesting. I don't think I ever encountered Cybernetics in college nor in all these years as a professional software engineer. Any more resources apart from the linked pdf that you would recommend, perhaps tailored to someone with a CS background? (I'm reading through the pdf, just wanted to see if there were other treatments on this topic)
- carapace 9y ago
  "Introduction to Cybernetics" is technical and very much in the spirit of CS. A lot of what gets called "cybernetics" tends to be kind of "fluffy" and I personally avoid that stuff. I'd recommend Norbert Wiener's "Cybernetics: Or Control and Communication in the Animal and the Machine". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norbert_Wiener https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norbert_Wiener https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetics:_Or_Control_and_Communication_in_the_Animal_and_the_Machine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetics:_Or_Control_and_Co... And "Behavior, Purpose and Teleology" by Rosenblueth, Wiener and Bigelow: http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/books/Wiener-teleology.pdf http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/books/Wiener-teleology.pdf