4 ms·

books can last decades. an ipad absolutely won’t.

schoen 9y ago
I have a printed book that's the same age as the U.S. constitution (now 231 years) and another printed book that's a few decades older (293 years), both of which are still completely legible. "Decades" feels like a big understatement to me. :-) We mostly think of paper as a poor archival medium because of a few decades, mainly at the end of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century, when high-acid wood pulp paper was very widely used. (Newspapers are also sometimes printed on cheap acidic newsprint.) Acidic paper can become brittle within 20 years or so, or in any case much less than a century, although this also depends on many other factors. But both before and after this period, many books were printed on acid-free paper, and these are likely to survive for centuries, even with occasional use. The observations about paper's longevity in, for instance, Nicholson Baker's polemical Double Fold, tallies well with my experience as the son of a bookdealer. My father routinely sells books that are over a century old to people who fully expect to read them. And I remember visiting an antiquarian book fair where a first folio Shakespeare was for sale for millions of dollars. It was still possible to turn the pages with no damage and all the printing was completely legible, even though the book was already 380 years old or so. Books on low-acid paper are really a very durable technology when treated with respect.
- greglindahl 9y ago
  I've digitized a bunch of 16th century books so I (and everyone else, they're out of copyright) can read them on a tablet or whatever. Added a search function, too. I am suggesting that claiming that one thing is best for everything and everyone is not true.
- eecc 9y ago
  Assuming the file format is documented, also bits remain completely legible throughout time. Perhaps we haven’t yet worked on a redundantly encoded, self documenting file format but eventually we will. At that point in time - assuming all relevant content won’t be copyrighted to death for 1000 years, that’s a big one - we will be able to simultaneously have unfettered access to any content
  - eitland 9y ago
    Disks exist in two states: - broken - about to break Even poor quality books are mostly readable after decades. I don't know for certain a single example of any of my disks that have survived since 1990ies although I could hope.
    - eecc 9y ago
      Also books exist in few states, of which only one is useful: well preserved, wet, burnt, torn apart. That’s how entropy works folks! One advantage of books is that the information density is lower so the loss of one specimen isn’t that significant, unless it’s unique
      - eitland 9y ago
        This isn't entirely correct. A book can be usable even if it has a few loose pages. Also you can fix it. Disks break more often and when they break you are lucky if you get anything out of them without paying (or being) a specialist.
        eecc 9y ago
        A disk will also survive some local data corruption or loss, even recover it and provide warnings sometimes. Catastrophic failure of a disk akin to total combustion of the book. Listen, can we stop this false analogy debate? It’s not advancing the discussion that much
        bwbw223 9y ago
        Although if you hit a book with a hammer, it’ll probably fare a bit better...
        eitland 9y ago
        I try once more: I have a big shelf of books. It includes my mothers chemistry book from before I was born as well as a few books bought second hand. I have maybe one disk from the time I was a teenager. Yes, fire will destroy a book (although parts will often be recoverable using low tech methods). The same fire will certainly destroy disks and make them unrecoverable for everyone but recovery labs (if they are recoverable at all.) Summary: books fail slower than disks. When they fail they often fail gracefully and you can still use them and even repair them using low tech tools. Disks fail more often. In fact you rarely see working disks from last decade. They fail for a number of reasons and other times seemingly for no reasons at all. When they fail they might have tried to warn you but often they just fail with no warning and unless you work in IT you'll rarely see those warnings anyway. Also after they've actually failed you more likely than not need a recovery lab to get anything back.
- icc97 9y ago
  I bought Heisenberg's quantum theory paper back from a second hand shop. It's 90 years old and in amazing condition with just sun damage to the spine. The pages are sewn together.
greglindahl 9y ago
Undergraduates mostly have textbooks which change every couple of years. Also, electronic books that don't have DRM don't die when the device does. I was physics/math and was lucky that my textbooks didn't change that rapidly, but still, it's a bit odd to claim that paper is the obvious choice for everyone based on widely varying circumstances.
coldtea 9y ago
ebooks can migrate from ipad to ipad (or any other system) without any damage to their contents. books can't.
- goshx 9y ago
  And you can create backups of them And you can search through the content And you can carry thousands or millions of them in a single device And you can add a new one to your collection without having to physically go anywhere to buy And you can draw and make marks without damaging the content forever And you can create bookmarks in multiple ebooks and have them all available at the same location, also with search functionallity And the device you use to read can be lighter than an actual book, at least it will always have the same weight regardless of how many ebooks you carry There is probably more.
  - goshx 9y ago
    I’m really curiuous to know what is apparently wrong with my comment. Any downvoter care to comment?

I have a printed book that's the same age as the U.S. constitution (now 231 years) and another printed book that's a few decades older (293 years), both of which are still completely legible. "Decades" feels like a big understatement to me. :-) We mostly think of paper as a poor archival medium because of a few decades, mainly at the end of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century, when high-acid wood pulp paper was very widely used. (Newspapers are also sometimes printed on cheap acidic newsprint.) Acidic paper can become brittle within 20 years or so, or in any case much less than a century, although this also depends on many other factors. But both before and after this period, many books were printed on acid-free paper, and these are likely to survive for centuries, even with occasional use. The observations about paper's longevity in, for instance, Nicholson Baker's polemical Double Fold, tallies well with my experience as the son of a bookdealer. My father routinely sells books that are over a century old to people who fully expect to read them. And I remember visiting an antiquarian book fair where a first folio Shakespeare was for sale for millions of dollars. It was still possible to turn the pages with no damage and all the printing was completely legible, even though the book was already 380 years old or so. Books on low-acid paper are really a very durable technology when treated with respect.

greglindahl 9y ago
I've digitized a bunch of 16th century books so I (and everyone else, they're out of copyright) can read them on a tablet or whatever. Added a search function, too. I am suggesting that claiming that one thing is best for everything and everyone is not true.
eecc 9y ago
Assuming the file format is documented, also bits remain completely legible throughout time. Perhaps we haven’t yet worked on a redundantly encoded, self documenting file format but eventually we will. At that point in time - assuming all relevant content won’t be copyrighted to death for 1000 years, that’s a big one - we will be able to simultaneously have unfettered access to any content
- eitland 9y ago
  Disks exist in two states: - broken - about to break Even poor quality books are mostly readable after decades. I don't know for certain a single example of any of my disks that have survived since 1990ies although I could hope.
  - eecc 9y ago
    Also books exist in few states, of which only one is useful: well preserved, wet, burnt, torn apart. That’s how entropy works folks! One advantage of books is that the information density is lower so the loss of one specimen isn’t that significant, unless it’s unique
    - eitland 9y ago
      This isn't entirely correct. A book can be usable even if it has a few loose pages. Also you can fix it. Disks break more often and when they break you are lucky if you get anything out of them without paying (or being) a specialist.
      - eecc 9y ago
        A disk will also survive some local data corruption or loss, even recover it and provide warnings sometimes. Catastrophic failure of a disk akin to total combustion of the book. Listen, can we stop this false analogy debate? It’s not advancing the discussion that much
        bwbw223 9y ago
        Although if you hit a book with a hammer, it’ll probably fare a bit better...
        eitland 9y ago
        I try once more: I have a big shelf of books. It includes my mothers chemistry book from before I was born as well as a few books bought second hand. I have maybe one disk from the time I was a teenager. Yes, fire will destroy a book (although parts will often be recoverable using low tech methods). The same fire will certainly destroy disks and make them unrecoverable for everyone but recovery labs (if they are recoverable at all.) Summary: books fail slower than disks. When they fail they often fail gracefully and you can still use them and even repair them using low tech tools. Disks fail more often. In fact you rarely see working disks from last decade. They fail for a number of reasons and other times seemingly for no reasons at all. When they fail they might have tried to warn you but often they just fail with no warning and unless you work in IT you'll rarely see those warnings anyway. Also after they've actually failed you more likely than not need a recovery lab to get anything back.
icc97 9y ago
I bought Heisenberg's quantum theory paper back from a second hand shop. It's 90 years old and in amazing condition with just sun damage to the spine. The pages are sewn together.

greglindahl 9y ago

Undergraduates mostly have textbooks which change every couple of years. Also, electronic books that don't have DRM don't die when the device does. I was physics/math and was lucky that my textbooks didn't change that rapidly, but still, it's a bit odd to claim that paper is the obvious choice for everyone based on widely varying circumstances.

coldtea 9y ago

ebooks can migrate from ipad to ipad (or any other system) without any damage to their contents. books can't.

goshx 9y ago
And you can create backups of them And you can search through the content And you can carry thousands or millions of them in a single device And you can add a new one to your collection without having to physically go anywhere to buy And you can draw and make marks without damaging the content forever And you can create bookmarks in multiple ebooks and have them all available at the same location, also with search functionallity And the device you use to read can be lighter than an actual book, at least it will always have the same weight regardless of how many ebooks you carry There is probably more.
- goshx 9y ago
  I’m really curiuous to know what is apparently wrong with my comment. Any downvoter care to comment?