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I worry they're going to come after us programmers next. Only "authorized" programmers will get the access code required to change anything. Microsoft, Apple, D

by ksk 9y ago

I worry they're going to come after us programmers next. Only "authorized" programmers will get the access code required to change anything. Microsoft, Apple, Dell, etc will control the access codes. "Programming is hard, and these untrained self-taught programmers can mess up your machine, they might install malware, or they might be hackers, or they might overclock your CPU and damage it, or they might use the system for terrorism. Really, they should only be allowed to access the machine if they were appropriately trained by us."

Someone1234 9y ago
Isn't this exactly how iOS works currently? You literally cannot develop for it without signing an Apple contract (even non-App store apps require a user account/agreement).
- mattsfrey 9y ago
  Technically that's just them locking you out of their distribution platform, I don't think they'd have a legal case against you though. People sell apps outside of the app store and haven't suffered any recourse from apple, at least not that I know of. EDIT: I guess you do have to technically agree to their terms to use the SDK and such, but if one were to get a hacked copy or whatever I think it'd be legal. They can definitely make it very hard to dodge their terms though.
  - shkkmo 9y ago
    How would a hacked copy make it more legal. Wouldn't using their software without a license also be illegal?
    - mattsfrey 9y ago
      I mostly just meant you wouldn't be breaking laws technically to go around them via reverse engineering. To your second statement that's actually a good point, it could be. I mean in general overall it's going to be pretty outrageous to try and legitimately develop going around apple entirely, so the OP's point is valid de facto, just saying in principle they can't lock people out in the absolute sense under current law.
      - saagarjha 9y ago
        > I mostly just meant you wouldn't be breaking laws technically to go around them via reverse engineering. Considering that their terms of service explicitly prohibits this, I'd say that it's illegal. Will Apple go after you if you do it? Probably not.
        PeterisP 9y ago
        First, violating terms of service isn't illegal - ToS isn't the law, it's a contract; breaching contract terms isn't illegal but may expose you to some liabilities depending on the contract. Second, terms of service don't always apply, you may refuse them, and then you're not even in breach of contract. Things like shrink-wrap/click-through EULAs aren't binding contracts in Norway; so the default provisions of copyright law apply, which allows reverse engineering without the permission of the copyright holder.
    - isostatic 9y ago
      > Wouldn't using their software without a license also be illegal? Which law? Copying software without permission might be illegal - loading it from disk into memory isn't counted as copying btw - but running the software?
      - roywiggins 9y ago
        If there's any copy-protection, you'd need to circumvent it, so plausibly the DMCA.
- bluescrn 9y ago
  And with rumours of Apple moving to ARM chips for their laptops, they could well try to take the opportunity to lock out unsigned code entirely... Before long they could even choose to make you buy an expensive Mac Pro or iMac Pro, or even require an 'iOS dev kit' if you want to develop for their platform. And if Microsoft had succeeded in the mobile/tablet space, they'd be doing exactly the same...
  - jimktrains2 9y ago
    > And with rumours of Apple moving to ARM chips for their laptops, they could well try to take the opportunity to lock out unsigned code entirely... Why do these two things have any relationship to each other? They can and do lock down x86-64 machines, you're just able to "opt-out" right now[1]. [1] https://it.nmu.edu/docs/allowing-third-party-applications-install-macbook https://it.nmu.edu/docs/allowing-third-party-applications-in...
  - endisukaj 9y ago
    Isn't that counter-productive though? I'll just take my business elsewhere and develop for competing environments.
    - swozey 9y ago
      Not if the majority of your customers are in that environment. You want to sell an app to 50 or 5,000 people? Just look at Linux games (which is WAY better nowadays, its incredible what you can play). I'm an android/*nix user. I'd love it if more devs had your mindset but they typically don't.
  - alasdair_ 9y ago
    >Before long they could even choose to make you buy an expensive Mac Pro or iMac Pro, or even require an 'iOS dev kit' if you want to develop for their platform. Hopefully this was sarcasm, since this is literally what is required right now to develop for iOS - you need a Mac (windows is not allowed) and a $99 developer account.
    - 9y ago
- balls187 9y ago
  No. You can build a web application, and people are free to navigate to it using Safari.
mattsfrey 9y ago
For the time being, at least in the US, reverse engineering is fully protected by well established precedent. Some nations have laws designed to stop "hackers" that outlaw some of the methodologies used in reverse engineering, which I heavily oppose for this reasoning.
kazinator 9y ago
> I worry they're going to come after us programmers next. That ship sailed decades ago. > Only "authorized" programmers will get the access code required to change anything. Stallman. Laser printer firmware. `nuff said. Speaking of Stallman and Apple: have you heard of this? It was formed in reaction to Apple's actions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_for_Programming_Freedom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_for_Programming_Freedom
talltimtom 9y ago
What are you talking about Apple and Microsoft already control those gateways, and for good reason. It’s trivial to write a mail client thAt just so happens to steal you passwords if it’s running while you browse. The balance now is if they abuse their role you have a billion dollar lawsuit and can leverage that against them.

by ksk 9y ago

Someone1234 9y ago

Isn't this exactly how iOS works currently? You literally cannot develop for it without signing an Apple contract (even non-App store apps require a user account/agreement).

mattsfrey 9y ago
Technically that's just them locking you out of their distribution platform, I don't think they'd have a legal case against you though. People sell apps outside of the app store and haven't suffered any recourse from apple, at least not that I know of. EDIT: I guess you do have to technically agree to their terms to use the SDK and such, but if one were to get a hacked copy or whatever I think it'd be legal. They can definitely make it very hard to dodge their terms though.
- shkkmo 9y ago
  How would a hacked copy make it more legal. Wouldn't using their software without a license also be illegal?
  - mattsfrey 9y ago
    I mostly just meant you wouldn't be breaking laws technically to go around them via reverse engineering. To your second statement that's actually a good point, it could be. I mean in general overall it's going to be pretty outrageous to try and legitimately develop going around apple entirely, so the OP's point is valid de facto, just saying in principle they can't lock people out in the absolute sense under current law.
    - saagarjha 9y ago
      > I mostly just meant you wouldn't be breaking laws technically to go around them via reverse engineering. Considering that their terms of service explicitly prohibits this, I'd say that it's illegal. Will Apple go after you if you do it? Probably not.
      - PeterisP 9y ago
        First, violating terms of service isn't illegal - ToS isn't the law, it's a contract; breaching contract terms isn't illegal but may expose you to some liabilities depending on the contract. Second, terms of service don't always apply, you may refuse them, and then you're not even in breach of contract. Things like shrink-wrap/click-through EULAs aren't binding contracts in Norway; so the default provisions of copyright law apply, which allows reverse engineering without the permission of the copyright holder.
  - isostatic 9y ago
    > Wouldn't using their software without a license also be illegal? Which law? Copying software without permission might be illegal - loading it from disk into memory isn't counted as copying btw - but running the software?
    - roywiggins 9y ago
      If there's any copy-protection, you'd need to circumvent it, so plausibly the DMCA.
bluescrn 9y ago
And with rumours of Apple moving to ARM chips for their laptops, they could well try to take the opportunity to lock out unsigned code entirely... Before long they could even choose to make you buy an expensive Mac Pro or iMac Pro, or even require an 'iOS dev kit' if you want to develop for their platform. And if Microsoft had succeeded in the mobile/tablet space, they'd be doing exactly the same...
- jimktrains2 9y ago
  > And with rumours of Apple moving to ARM chips for their laptops, they could well try to take the opportunity to lock out unsigned code entirely... Why do these two things have any relationship to each other? They can and do lock down x86-64 machines, you're just able to "opt-out" right now[1]. [1] https://it.nmu.edu/docs/allowing-third-party-applications-install-macbook https://it.nmu.edu/docs/allowing-third-party-applications-in...
- endisukaj 9y ago
  Isn't that counter-productive though? I'll just take my business elsewhere and develop for competing environments.
  - swozey 9y ago
    Not if the majority of your customers are in that environment. You want to sell an app to 50 or 5,000 people? Just look at Linux games (which is WAY better nowadays, its incredible what you can play). I'm an android/*nix user. I'd love it if more devs had your mindset but they typically don't.
- alasdair_ 9y ago
  >Before long they could even choose to make you buy an expensive Mac Pro or iMac Pro, or even require an 'iOS dev kit' if you want to develop for their platform. Hopefully this was sarcasm, since this is literally what is required right now to develop for iOS - you need a Mac (windows is not allowed) and a $99 developer account.
  - 9y ago
balls187 9y ago
No. You can build a web application, and people are free to navigate to it using Safari.

mattsfrey 9y ago

For the time being, at least in the US, reverse engineering is fully protected by well established precedent. Some nations have laws designed to stop "hackers" that outlaw some of the methodologies used in reverse engineering, which I heavily oppose for this reasoning.

kazinator 9y ago

> I worry they're going to come after us programmers next. That ship sailed decades ago. > Only "authorized" programmers will get the access code required to change anything. Stallman. Laser printer firmware. `nuff said. Speaking of Stallman and Apple: have you heard of this? It was formed in reaction to Apple's actions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_for_Programming_Freedom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_for_Programming_Freedom

talltimtom 9y ago

What are you talking about Apple and Microsoft already control those gateways, and for good reason. It’s trivial to write a mail client thAt just so happens to steal you passwords if it’s running while you browse. The balance now is if they abuse their role you have a billion dollar lawsuit and can leverage that against them.