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It's not that simple. Until literally 3 days ago I held exactly your same view "why don't they just become Apple authorized repair shops?" Well, apparently App

by atonse 9y ago

It's not that simple. Until literally 3 days ago I held exactly your same view "why don't they just become Apple authorized repair shops?" Well, apparently Apple actually restricts the repairs you can do. For example, if you have water damage, you aren't allowed to just fix the actual components (capacitors, etc) that blew, you have to replace the whole board, resulting in much higher costs and eWaste for customers. (This is from Louis Rossmann, a well known YouTuber who fixes MacBooks). You are basically restricted to mostly replacing boards and things like that, not fixing individual chips. For a company that toots their horn about being Green, their policies sure generate a ton more waste than necessary. And I say this as someone who almost exclusively owns Apple stuff. I am holding out with my 2015 MBP dearly for the next iteration of their laptop keyboards that don't require a $500 repair because of a spec of dust. All this has made me a STRONG proponent of the right-to-repair movement. If Apple actually cared more about less flashy and sexy parts about being green, they'd make these parts readily available.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
urda 9y ago
Louis Rossmann, who openly admitted to using illegally obtained schematics and internal documents from Apple? I wouldn't be throwing that name around as a talking point at all in this discussion. The reason why Apple doesn't want any Joe-schmoe just yanking and replacing caps and other components is simple: quality control. I can barely count on two hands people I would be comfortable working on the innards of a PC, let alone my phone and even then let alone desoldering and soldering new components onboard. Apple isn't doing this because they don't want people to repair their stuff, but because for most consumers it isn't feasible without ruining the rest of the product. These are small, compact, and complicated devices. It's not like swapping out some RAM or a GPU on a desktop rig at all. So yes, replace the whole board and recycle the old (as Apple does with most of their parts).
- nightcracker 9y ago
  > Louis Rossmann, who openly admitted to using illegally obtained schematics and internal documents from Apple? Are you seriously trying to discredit a man for doing exactly what he's fighting for? It's like trying to discredit a politician that's pushing for the abolition of jaywalking by saying that he jay walks himself. No shit - that's the whole point.
  - urda 9y ago
    I'll repost the same thing here, since apparently this is confusing to some HN users this morning: > So you're discounting someone's opinion because they were forced to use unauthorized repair manuals because the manufacturer stopped producing repair manuals for devices customers have paid for? Yes, because it's a legal case we are discussing here and that's called "breaking the law". Failing to understand that means I cannot discuss this article with you at all since a really important common understanding has been missed on your part.
    - pixl97 9y ago
      "I'm sorry, I can't discuss this case with you because you won't sit at the back of the bus, like the law says" --You 60 years ago
- ksk 9y ago
  >The reason why Apple doesn't want any Joe-schmoe just yanking and replacing caps and other components is simple: quality control. I can barely count on two hands people I would be comfortable working on the innards of a PC, let alone my phone and even then let alone desoldering and soldering new components onboard. And yet people are perfectly OK with a greasy mechanic fixing their metal cage hurtling down the freeway at 65 miles per hour. Your attempt to demean skilled repair workers is rather telling of your own bias.
  - urda 9y ago
    > And yet people are perfectly OK with a greasy mechanic fixing their metal cage hurtling down the freeway at 65 miles per hour. Your attempt to demean skilled repair workers is rather telling of your own bias. Woah I didn't know you could read my mind! For a matter of fact, I'm also very picky on who works or touches my car just for your information. Drop the strawman it's unbecoming. Second, there's an entire industry and certification to auto mechanics much like a trained repairman would be for phones. Third, since when is a "Joe-schmoe" a skilled repair worker? I fully do not expect the common citizen to even know how to do a basic soldier, let alone replace parts on a packed PCB. I didn't mention anything about skilled repair workers, nor is that demeaning to point out the abilities to repair small electronic devices like phones is not just a "walk in the park". Drop the attacks and focus on the article, this is HN not reddit.
    - ksk 9y ago
      >Woah I didn't know you could read my mind! Oh, but you certainly are able to determine the skill level of people you don't know. Nice. Quoting you: >The reason why Apple doesn't want any Joe-schmoe just yanking and replacing caps and other components is simple: quality control. You called them joe-schmoe, and questioned the quality of their work. Yeah, maybe in your alternate universe that considered praise. Normal people read that as an insult. Let me suggest some alternate wording "a competent technician will use their extensive knowledge, and repair your device" >Drop the attacks and focus on the article, this is HN not reddit. I would invite you to take your own advice first. >I didn't mention anything about skilled repair workers, nor is that demeaning to point out the abilities to repair small electronic devices like phones is not just a "walk in the park". Please point to the text arguing that repairing devices is a "walk in the park".
- Someone1234 9y ago
  > Louis Rossmann, who openly admitted to using illegally obtained schematics and internal documents from Apple? I wouldn't be throwing that name around as a talking point at all in this discussion. So you're discounting someone's opinion because they were forced to use unauthorized repair manuals since the manufacturer stopped producing repair manuals for devices customers have paid for? That's the whole crux of the issue, that people have lost the "right to repair" their own devices due to suppressing information, suppressing reverse engineering efforts, and suppressing compatible replacement components (and software). Effectively you're saying that if someone supports and tries to uphold the "right to repair" their opinions should be ignored because they did something a large corporation told them not to. > Apple isn't doing this because they don't want people to repair their stuff See, I thought it was financially motivated. > but because for most consumers it isn't feasible without ruining the rest of the product. Someone has a broken device, they shouldn't be allowed to try and repair it themselves because they could make it worse? In either case they have a broken device. And Apple is well within their rights to refuse a repair after someone has tried a DIY repair, but often that isn't a financial possibility which is why a DIY repair was tried to begin with. You don't have to go far to find an anecdote of someone who took an older Macbook into an Apple store and the repair cost was nearly as high as a replacement cost.
  - urda 9y ago
    > So you're discounting someone's opinion because they were forced to use unauthorized repair manuals because the manufacturer stopped producing repair manuals for devices customers have paid for? Yes, because it's a legal case we are discussing here and that's called "breaking the law". Failing to understand that means I cannot discuss this article with you at all since a really important common understanding has been missed on your part.
    - smallnamespace 9y ago
      > that's called "breaking the law" Right, which is why people are advocating getting the law changed, because they believe the practical outcome of law as it current exists is not just (nor economically efficient, for that matter).
- smallnamespace 9y ago
  > The reason why Apple doesn't want any Joe-schmoe just yanking and replacing caps and other components is simple: quality control Right, and the entire discussion is that Apple's right to quality control has overreached to the point that it is now impinging upon the common sense right of someone to be able try to fix something that they own when it breaks.
  - dpkonofa 9y ago
    How so? Apple isn't stopping anyone from being able to try and fix something that they own. The only action they've taken is against companies claiming that they're an Apple authorized repair center when they're not.
- crististm 9y ago
  About counting people thing: your frame of reference is probably too narrow? Come to thing of it, I personally don't know ten people capable of doing state of the art SMD repairs but I'm sure there are many more than that in _my town_.
throwahey 9y ago
I would take anything Rossman says with a grain of salt, he clearly has a personal vendetta against Apple. Further, Apple products are almost entirely recyclable, up to and including the packaging. As long as they are properly disposed of, you wouldn't be producing additional waste. And you are assuming that "flash" and "sexy" serve a single, vapid purpose. The designs of their products are as compact and space efficient as possible because weight, battery size, and thermals all play a factor in the quality of a product. You can shit on them all you want but no company comes close to Apple in quality, and I don't see anyone complaining about the right to repair ultrabooks, or pixelbooks.
- endemic 9y ago
  >As long as they are properly disposed of, you wouldn't be producing additional waste. I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. You'd have to take into account the cost of sourcing raw materials for a replacement machine, right? I've heard anecdotes about how buying a used gas-burning car is actually less detrimental to the environment than buying a new EV; this strikes me as a similar situation.
  - Johnny555 9y ago
    buying a used gas-burning car is actually less detrimental to the environment than buying a new EV I think that's only true if that gas burning car was going to be destroyed if you didn't buy it. Someone will buy it, maybe someone that's replacing their older less efficient car. And by buying the more expensive EV, your demand is helping to increase volume and lower costs of EV's.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - nugi 9y ago
      No, even driving 200miles a day, for 15 years in a 1978 suburban with bad rings is less poluting than producing a single eCar.
amluto 9y ago
I have another not-very-green issue: my iPhone lightning port is wearing out. Apple will not repair it in their own shops. At least they don’t seem to try to prevent third parties from doing it. This is especially surprising given the unusual design of the Lightning port. Most ports (e.g. all USB variants) put the parts that are likely to wear out in the cable. Lightning has them in the jack, which is why the cable is so pretty. But for some reason Apple thinks it’s reasonable for the jack to be officially non-replaceable.
- digi_owl 9y ago
  Actually the mini-USB put the parts that were likely to wear in the plug...
  - mikeash 9y ago
    That’s why mini USB is now almost extinct, replaced with micro USB (and now Type C?) which doesn’t make that mistake.
    - amluto 9y ago
      IIRC type C is even rated for 10k cycles. Other than some serious charging screwups and a generally overcomplicated design, it’s quite well engineered.
- DanHulton 9y ago
  So, I thought my port was wearing out as well, and got very upset. What I found, however, was just that pocket lint had gotten jammed in there and compacted down over and over through the years, such that the cable didn't fit snugly any more. I fixed this just by using a plastic flosser to pick the lint out (you could use a paper clip, but I opted for the somewhat-softer plastic), then some canned air to get rid of the remaining bits. Went from "oh god, I gotta go to the Apple store" to connecting with a SNAP again, with a seal tight enough to support the phone's entire weight. I hope that this is just your issue, because it's very easy to fix, even if diagnosing it is a bit tricky.
zaroth 9y ago
It would be like when the capacitor blew on my A/C condenser if I would be forced to replace the whole unit instead of the $10 part. It’s important that people know if they are getting 3rd party or refurbished parts, but it’s equally important for people to have the right to use 3rd party and refurbished parts if they so choose — with the only restriction of having the necessary safety/compliance markings.
- dpkonofa 9y ago
  That's not analogous at all. Apple is not stopping people from repairing their devices with 3rd party or refurbished parts. The parts in the OP article were branded as Apple parts (logo and everything) but were not actual Apple parts. That's why Apple is asking for receipts and purchase orders. They want the guy to prove that he's buying the parts from them if he's telling customers that they're genuine Apple parts. The amount of misinformation around here is staggering...
  - zaroth 9y ago
    That wasn't my understanding from reading the article... I read it to mean that they were refurbished Apple parts, but not refurbished by Apple. A screen assembled by a third party consisting of some parts made by Apple with the Apple logo, but the assembly of the completed part was not done by Apple. But TFA is really not clear at all on this point. My capacitor analogy was more to the point of Apple being against microsoldering repairs where individual components are replaced instead of the entire board.
    - dpkonofa 9y ago
      Yeah... I understood the analogy but I just think it's inaccurate because Apple doesn't have that policy out of some kind of nefarious reasons. They do it that way because micro soldering repairs in-store would take far long and are probably not worth the effort. A customer would much rather get their phone or computer swapped out or repaired in 20 minutes than have to leave it for days on end while it's re-soldered and individual components are on order. Since Apple can do that all off-site, there's not really a benefit. The comment about waste isn't correct either since Apple recycles most of that stuff.
dpkonofa 9y ago
>resulting in much higher costs and eWaste for customers. This isn't true or accurate. The costs of this service are lower, overall because the rate of repairs are faster which means more customers can have working devices faster which means that Apple can (and does) take time on the backend to remanufacture and certify parts. They don't throw out these components. They're taken apart, tested, and, if they pass, they're used to remanufacture devices for warranty and insurance purposes that are then sold to phone insurance carriers and given to warranty customers. The idea that they are restricting repairs for any reason other than the fact that it's a better experience for the end-user is complete FUD.
wuliwong 9y ago
I think you are misrepresenting dpkonofa's position. I believe his position is that Apple shouldn't be forced to assist with your repairs by producing manuals and parts. That isn't the same as "why don't they just become Apple authorized repair shops?"
- dpkonofa 9y ago
  Thank you. I'm being downvoted left and right here because people are arguing a straw man of what I'm actually saying.

by atonse 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

urda 9y ago

Louis Rossmann, who openly admitted to using illegally obtained schematics and internal documents from Apple? I wouldn't be throwing that name around as a talking point at all in this discussion. The reason why Apple doesn't want any Joe-schmoe just yanking and replacing caps and other components is simple: quality control. I can barely count on two hands people I would be comfortable working on the innards of a PC, let alone my phone and even then let alone desoldering and soldering new components onboard. Apple isn't doing this because they don't want people to repair their stuff, but because for most consumers it isn't feasible without ruining the rest of the product. These are small, compact, and complicated devices. It's not like swapping out some RAM or a GPU on a desktop rig at all. So yes, replace the whole board and recycle the old (as Apple does with most of their parts).

nightcracker 9y ago
> Louis Rossmann, who openly admitted to using illegally obtained schematics and internal documents from Apple? Are you seriously trying to discredit a man for doing exactly what he's fighting for? It's like trying to discredit a politician that's pushing for the abolition of jaywalking by saying that he jay walks himself. No shit - that's the whole point.
- urda 9y ago
  I'll repost the same thing here, since apparently this is confusing to some HN users this morning: > So you're discounting someone's opinion because they were forced to use unauthorized repair manuals because the manufacturer stopped producing repair manuals for devices customers have paid for? Yes, because it's a legal case we are discussing here and that's called "breaking the law". Failing to understand that means I cannot discuss this article with you at all since a really important common understanding has been missed on your part.
  - pixl97 9y ago
    "I'm sorry, I can't discuss this case with you because you won't sit at the back of the bus, like the law says" --You 60 years ago
ksk 9y ago
>The reason why Apple doesn't want any Joe-schmoe just yanking and replacing caps and other components is simple: quality control. I can barely count on two hands people I would be comfortable working on the innards of a PC, let alone my phone and even then let alone desoldering and soldering new components onboard. And yet people are perfectly OK with a greasy mechanic fixing their metal cage hurtling down the freeway at 65 miles per hour. Your attempt to demean skilled repair workers is rather telling of your own bias.
- urda 9y ago
  > And yet people are perfectly OK with a greasy mechanic fixing their metal cage hurtling down the freeway at 65 miles per hour. Your attempt to demean skilled repair workers is rather telling of your own bias. Woah I didn't know you could read my mind! For a matter of fact, I'm also very picky on who works or touches my car just for your information. Drop the strawman it's unbecoming. Second, there's an entire industry and certification to auto mechanics much like a trained repairman would be for phones. Third, since when is a "Joe-schmoe" a skilled repair worker? I fully do not expect the common citizen to even know how to do a basic soldier, let alone replace parts on a packed PCB. I didn't mention anything about skilled repair workers, nor is that demeaning to point out the abilities to repair small electronic devices like phones is not just a "walk in the park". Drop the attacks and focus on the article, this is HN not reddit.
  - ksk 9y ago
    >Woah I didn't know you could read my mind! Oh, but you certainly are able to determine the skill level of people you don't know. Nice. Quoting you: >The reason why Apple doesn't want any Joe-schmoe just yanking and replacing caps and other components is simple: quality control. You called them joe-schmoe, and questioned the quality of their work. Yeah, maybe in your alternate universe that considered praise. Normal people read that as an insult. Let me suggest some alternate wording "a competent technician will use their extensive knowledge, and repair your device" >Drop the attacks and focus on the article, this is HN not reddit. I would invite you to take your own advice first. >I didn't mention anything about skilled repair workers, nor is that demeaning to point out the abilities to repair small electronic devices like phones is not just a "walk in the park". Please point to the text arguing that repairing devices is a "walk in the park".
Someone1234 9y ago
> Louis Rossmann, who openly admitted to using illegally obtained schematics and internal documents from Apple? I wouldn't be throwing that name around as a talking point at all in this discussion. So you're discounting someone's opinion because they were forced to use unauthorized repair manuals since the manufacturer stopped producing repair manuals for devices customers have paid for? That's the whole crux of the issue, that people have lost the "right to repair" their own devices due to suppressing information, suppressing reverse engineering efforts, and suppressing compatible replacement components (and software). Effectively you're saying that if someone supports and tries to uphold the "right to repair" their opinions should be ignored because they did something a large corporation told them not to. > Apple isn't doing this because they don't want people to repair their stuff See, I thought it was financially motivated. > but because for most consumers it isn't feasible without ruining the rest of the product. Someone has a broken device, they shouldn't be allowed to try and repair it themselves because they could make it worse? In either case they have a broken device. And Apple is well within their rights to refuse a repair after someone has tried a DIY repair, but often that isn't a financial possibility which is why a DIY repair was tried to begin with. You don't have to go far to find an anecdote of someone who took an older Macbook into an Apple store and the repair cost was nearly as high as a replacement cost.
- urda 9y ago
  > So you're discounting someone's opinion because they were forced to use unauthorized repair manuals because the manufacturer stopped producing repair manuals for devices customers have paid for? Yes, because it's a legal case we are discussing here and that's called "breaking the law". Failing to understand that means I cannot discuss this article with you at all since a really important common understanding has been missed on your part.
  - smallnamespace 9y ago
    > that's called "breaking the law" Right, which is why people are advocating getting the law changed, because they believe the practical outcome of law as it current exists is not just (nor economically efficient, for that matter).
smallnamespace 9y ago
> The reason why Apple doesn't want any Joe-schmoe just yanking and replacing caps and other components is simple: quality control Right, and the entire discussion is that Apple's right to quality control has overreached to the point that it is now impinging upon the common sense right of someone to be able try to fix something that they own when it breaks.
- dpkonofa 9y ago
  How so? Apple isn't stopping anyone from being able to try and fix something that they own. The only action they've taken is against companies claiming that they're an Apple authorized repair center when they're not.
crististm 9y ago
About counting people thing: your frame of reference is probably too narrow? Come to thing of it, I personally don't know ten people capable of doing state of the art SMD repairs but I'm sure there are many more than that in _my town_.

throwahey 9y ago

I would take anything Rossman says with a grain of salt, he clearly has a personal vendetta against Apple. Further, Apple products are almost entirely recyclable, up to and including the packaging. As long as they are properly disposed of, you wouldn't be producing additional waste. And you are assuming that "flash" and "sexy" serve a single, vapid purpose. The designs of their products are as compact and space efficient as possible because weight, battery size, and thermals all play a factor in the quality of a product. You can shit on them all you want but no company comes close to Apple in quality, and I don't see anyone complaining about the right to repair ultrabooks, or pixelbooks.

endemic 9y ago
>As long as they are properly disposed of, you wouldn't be producing additional waste. I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. You'd have to take into account the cost of sourcing raw materials for a replacement machine, right? I've heard anecdotes about how buying a used gas-burning car is actually less detrimental to the environment than buying a new EV; this strikes me as a similar situation.
- Johnny555 9y ago
  buying a used gas-burning car is actually less detrimental to the environment than buying a new EV I think that's only true if that gas burning car was going to be destroyed if you didn't buy it. Someone will buy it, maybe someone that's replacing their older less efficient car. And by buying the more expensive EV, your demand is helping to increase volume and lower costs of EV's.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - nugi 9y ago
    No, even driving 200miles a day, for 15 years in a 1978 suburban with bad rings is less poluting than producing a single eCar.

amluto 9y ago

I have another not-very-green issue: my iPhone lightning port is wearing out. Apple will not repair it in their own shops. At least they don’t seem to try to prevent third parties from doing it. This is especially surprising given the unusual design of the Lightning port. Most ports (e.g. all USB variants) put the parts that are likely to wear out in the cable. Lightning has them in the jack, which is why the cable is so pretty. But for some reason Apple thinks it’s reasonable for the jack to be officially non-replaceable.

digi_owl 9y ago
Actually the mini-USB put the parts that were likely to wear in the plug...
- mikeash 9y ago
  That’s why mini USB is now almost extinct, replaced with micro USB (and now Type C?) which doesn’t make that mistake.
  - amluto 9y ago
    IIRC type C is even rated for 10k cycles. Other than some serious charging screwups and a generally overcomplicated design, it’s quite well engineered.
DanHulton 9y ago
So, I thought my port was wearing out as well, and got very upset. What I found, however, was just that pocket lint had gotten jammed in there and compacted down over and over through the years, such that the cable didn't fit snugly any more. I fixed this just by using a plastic flosser to pick the lint out (you could use a paper clip, but I opted for the somewhat-softer plastic), then some canned air to get rid of the remaining bits. Went from "oh god, I gotta go to the Apple store" to connecting with a SNAP again, with a seal tight enough to support the phone's entire weight. I hope that this is just your issue, because it's very easy to fix, even if diagnosing it is a bit tricky.

zaroth 9y ago

It would be like when the capacitor blew on my A/C condenser if I would be forced to replace the whole unit instead of the $10 part. It’s important that people know if they are getting 3rd party or refurbished parts, but it’s equally important for people to have the right to use 3rd party and refurbished parts if they so choose — with the only restriction of having the necessary safety/compliance markings.

dpkonofa 9y ago
That's not analogous at all. Apple is not stopping people from repairing their devices with 3rd party or refurbished parts. The parts in the OP article were branded as Apple parts (logo and everything) but were not actual Apple parts. That's why Apple is asking for receipts and purchase orders. They want the guy to prove that he's buying the parts from them if he's telling customers that they're genuine Apple parts. The amount of misinformation around here is staggering...
- zaroth 9y ago
  That wasn't my understanding from reading the article... I read it to mean that they were refurbished Apple parts, but not refurbished by Apple. A screen assembled by a third party consisting of some parts made by Apple with the Apple logo, but the assembly of the completed part was not done by Apple. But TFA is really not clear at all on this point. My capacitor analogy was more to the point of Apple being against microsoldering repairs where individual components are replaced instead of the entire board.
  - dpkonofa 9y ago
    Yeah... I understood the analogy but I just think it's inaccurate because Apple doesn't have that policy out of some kind of nefarious reasons. They do it that way because micro soldering repairs in-store would take far long and are probably not worth the effort. A customer would much rather get their phone or computer swapped out or repaired in 20 minutes than have to leave it for days on end while it's re-soldered and individual components are on order. Since Apple can do that all off-site, there's not really a benefit. The comment about waste isn't correct either since Apple recycles most of that stuff.

dpkonofa 9y ago

>resulting in much higher costs and eWaste for customers. This isn't true or accurate. The costs of this service are lower, overall because the rate of repairs are faster which means more customers can have working devices faster which means that Apple can (and does) take time on the backend to remanufacture and certify parts. They don't throw out these components. They're taken apart, tested, and, if they pass, they're used to remanufacture devices for warranty and insurance purposes that are then sold to phone insurance carriers and given to warranty customers. The idea that they are restricting repairs for any reason other than the fact that it's a better experience for the end-user is complete FUD.

wuliwong 9y ago

I think you are misrepresenting dpkonofa's position. I believe his position is that Apple shouldn't be forced to assist with your repairs by producing manuals and parts. That isn't the same as "why don't they just become Apple authorized repair shops?"

dpkonofa 9y ago
Thank you. I'm being downvoted left and right here because people are arguing a straw man of what I'm actually saying.