4 ms·

The problem is future employers don't know if mark made a one time mistake or is a serial cookie monster. Why would they hire mark over a similar employee with

by volak 8y ago

The problem is future employers don't know if mark made a one time mistake or is a serial cookie monster. Why would they hire mark over a similar employee with a clean record? Mark needs to be given the opportunity to demonstrate to an employer hes no longer a cookie monster. He needs to rebuild that trust. He would do this by taking a lower than average pay, agreeing to periodic cookie-tests, and giving the employer the option to terminate his employment at any time without cause. If mark really isn't a cookie monster anymore he should be fine with this precautions to minimize the company's risk - after a year or so when there is more trust these disappear.

ocdtrekkie 8y ago
This is not a realistic scenario: Pretty much all employers will just hire someone else.
- volak 8y ago
  If I was HR and I had a choice between a Javascript developer for 50k with a clean record and a Javascript developer with a 5 year old conviction for 40k - I'd actually pick the later. But only if I could fire him immediately if he turns out to actually be a cookie monster.
  - lovich 8y ago
    That's how HR acts in practice though. Especially with automated tools, checking off a "have you ever had a prior conviction" box just gets you an automated rejection without a human ever looking at it
    - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
      Where I live they aren't allowed to ask anymore, I think. But they'll likely find out on a quick search.
    - volak 8y ago
      Yes a lot of companies do. Especially minimum wage jobs. Because there are vastly more people without a record willing to work. But now imagine you have a previous conviction but you are willing to work for less than minimum wage? If I value a fry cook for $10 an hour and I get 1 person with a previous conviction who wants to work for $5 - I'll hire him in a heartbeat so long as I could fire him at any moment. And since I'm a good employer I'll make him a deal to pay him $10 an hour after 6 months provided he stays clean and works hard. As it stands I'm not allowed to do any of that - so the convict remains unemployed and will probably commit more crime just to survive. I'll let my man Friedman take it from here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca8Z__o52sk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca8Z__o52sk
      - lovich 8y ago
        That's just going to make a space underclass. There's not a benefit to convicting people because hey, cheap labor. The same forces are already happening with prison labor. What you are suggesting is that any single mistake is now a permanent albatross around a person's neck and a reason for them to be permanently deprived. In a society where we have so many laws that everyone breaks several a day, this just leads to selective enforcement and corruption.
jlarocco 8y ago
> If mark really isn't a cookie monster anymore he should be fine with this precautions to minimize the company's risk - after a year or so when there is more trust these disappear. The problem is that "mark" will be bogged down with that punishment for the rest of his life at every job he works, so the punishment doesn't fit the crime. Being a former "cookie monster" should not mean a lifetime of lower pay and fewer employment rights. Facebook and Google's infinite memory, combined with all of our "zero tolerance" policies are going to make the United States a really crappy place to live in the not too distant future.
- volak 8y ago
  Not true - if mark has a resume listing a successful employment post-cookie incident I would call them for a reference. A good reference isn't completely trustworthy but 2 or 3 of them with good companies and I'd be convinced.
  - Tehnix 8y ago
    Two equal employees, that would be the eliminating point..
octorian 8y ago
And once Mark rebuilds trust with company A, all is good. Until, that is, Mark decides to get a new job. Once Mark goes to company B, they find the cookie monster article and make Mark completely rebuild trust from scratch. Then Mark has to move, and goes to company C. The cycle repeats again. Thus Mark is never able to truly get over the cookie monster incident.
- volak 8y ago
  Not true - if mark has a resume listing a successful employment post-cookie incident I would call them for a reference. A good reference isn't completely trustworthy but 2 or 3 of them with good companies and I'd be convinced.
  - lovich 8y ago
    You apparently live a privelaged life then. Laws are being passed in US states to prevent criminal history from being asked until an offer has been made precisely because people are not able to get over the result. The HR pipeline treats any sort of checkered pass as and immediate rejection, whether or not a hiring manager would treat it as such
    - volak 8y ago
      True - 100% true. If I had a checkered past with no references I would expect to get denied for every job I applied to. To combat this prejudice I would fully expect to have to lower my expectations in the form of lower wage or other restriction. If I offer to work for half the normal pay not only will I definitely get hired but I'll get a good reference providing I prove myself capable and trustworthy.
      - lovich 8y ago
        Why would you get a good reference? Your boss can just always give a bad reference so that your forced to stay. After all he's getting cheap labor, and you have to risk never getting employed again. You're coming at this from a viewpoint that implies that companies want to help people, when we are already dealing with that fact that they absolutely do not
gremy0 8y ago
If your criminal record is truly relevant to the job, then the employer should do the responsible thing and get a proper background check done. Which are factual and non-biased. Such things shouldn't be left up to google page ranking algorithms and media that tends toward sensationalisation. It's lazy and unprofessional. > Why would they hire mark over a similar employee with a clean record? Is it useful to have people with a history of low level crime habitually unemployable. Don't we want to reduce crime. > Mark needs to be given the opportunity to demonstrate to an employer hes no longer a cookie monster. Mark is innocent of further crimes until he is convicted and the employer would need to have reasonable cause to discriminate against him. We have parole and other such mechanisms where official bodies can decide how long a person needs to speed demonstrating they are no longer a criminal, and make sure the relevant people are aware of this. Why leave it up to some random employer armed with google. > He would do this by taking a lower than average pay, Why does he deserve lower pay. This is just enabling employers to take advantage of vulnerable people. > and giving the employer the option to terminate his employment at any time without cause. The employer has the right to terminate at any time for mark committing a criminal act. He doesn't need this. Plus this is europe and workers have rights
- volak 8y ago
  I don't like to break up arguments into tiny pieces and remark on each one - so I'll just wrap this up in 1 thought like a normal person. You are essentially complaining about human nature. Here in reality people want to know if you've violated someone else's trust before trusting you. We are social beings and if you present two people - "This one betrayed a friend, this other one has not" - 99% of people will choose the later. You will never ever convince a majority of people that someone who has demonstrated untrustability should be trusted the same as someone who has not. Regardless of how long he spent in a steel and concrete cage.
  - gremy0 8y ago
    You misunderstand, I'm saying there are fair and professional ways to find out if someone is trustworthy. Googling their name, and finding some 5 year old article is not one of these. It presents a incomplete picture that is biased towards attention grabbing material from for-profit media. Use proper background checks and references. There are also fair ways to deal with criminals, and staff you may not trust. Using google results as the bases of randomly deducting pay, removing employment rights, and other discriminatory acts, is not one of these. It would be far too easy for employers to abuse and doesn't lend itself to the employee having stability. This would just increase the chances of the employee returning to crime.
bsder 8y ago
> The problem is future employers don't know if mark made a one time mistake or is a serial cookie monster. Why would they hire mark over a similar employee with a clean record? Because for certain types of cookie monster, those who steal cookies, get caught, and serve their penalty are MORE trustworthy than the population at large.

by volak 8y ago

ocdtrekkie 8y ago

This is not a realistic scenario: Pretty much all employers will just hire someone else.

volak 8y ago
If I was HR and I had a choice between a Javascript developer for 50k with a clean record and a Javascript developer with a 5 year old conviction for 40k - I'd actually pick the later. But only if I could fire him immediately if he turns out to actually be a cookie monster.
- lovich 8y ago
  That's how HR acts in practice though. Especially with automated tools, checking off a "have you ever had a prior conviction" box just gets you an automated rejection without a human ever looking at it
  - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
    Where I live they aren't allowed to ask anymore, I think. But they'll likely find out on a quick search.
  - volak 8y ago
    Yes a lot of companies do. Especially minimum wage jobs. Because there are vastly more people without a record willing to work. But now imagine you have a previous conviction but you are willing to work for less than minimum wage? If I value a fry cook for $10 an hour and I get 1 person with a previous conviction who wants to work for $5 - I'll hire him in a heartbeat so long as I could fire him at any moment. And since I'm a good employer I'll make him a deal to pay him $10 an hour after 6 months provided he stays clean and works hard. As it stands I'm not allowed to do any of that - so the convict remains unemployed and will probably commit more crime just to survive. I'll let my man Friedman take it from here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca8Z__o52sk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca8Z__o52sk
    - lovich 8y ago
      That's just going to make a space underclass. There's not a benefit to convicting people because hey, cheap labor. The same forces are already happening with prison labor. What you are suggesting is that any single mistake is now a permanent albatross around a person's neck and a reason for them to be permanently deprived. In a society where we have so many laws that everyone breaks several a day, this just leads to selective enforcement and corruption.

jlarocco 8y ago

> If mark really isn't a cookie monster anymore he should be fine with this precautions to minimize the company's risk - after a year or so when there is more trust these disappear. The problem is that "mark" will be bogged down with that punishment for the rest of his life at every job he works, so the punishment doesn't fit the crime. Being a former "cookie monster" should not mean a lifetime of lower pay and fewer employment rights. Facebook and Google's infinite memory, combined with all of our "zero tolerance" policies are going to make the United States a really crappy place to live in the not too distant future.

volak 8y ago
Not true - if mark has a resume listing a successful employment post-cookie incident I would call them for a reference. A good reference isn't completely trustworthy but 2 or 3 of them with good companies and I'd be convinced.
- Tehnix 8y ago
  Two equal employees, that would be the eliminating point..

octorian 8y ago

And once Mark rebuilds trust with company A, all is good. Until, that is, Mark decides to get a new job. Once Mark goes to company B, they find the cookie monster article and make Mark completely rebuild trust from scratch. Then Mark has to move, and goes to company C. The cycle repeats again. Thus Mark is never able to truly get over the cookie monster incident.

volak 8y ago
Not true - if mark has a resume listing a successful employment post-cookie incident I would call them for a reference. A good reference isn't completely trustworthy but 2 or 3 of them with good companies and I'd be convinced.
- lovich 8y ago
  You apparently live a privelaged life then. Laws are being passed in US states to prevent criminal history from being asked until an offer has been made precisely because people are not able to get over the result. The HR pipeline treats any sort of checkered pass as and immediate rejection, whether or not a hiring manager would treat it as such
  - volak 8y ago
    True - 100% true. If I had a checkered past with no references I would expect to get denied for every job I applied to. To combat this prejudice I would fully expect to have to lower my expectations in the form of lower wage or other restriction. If I offer to work for half the normal pay not only will I definitely get hired but I'll get a good reference providing I prove myself capable and trustworthy.
    - lovich 8y ago
      Why would you get a good reference? Your boss can just always give a bad reference so that your forced to stay. After all he's getting cheap labor, and you have to risk never getting employed again. You're coming at this from a viewpoint that implies that companies want to help people, when we are already dealing with that fact that they absolutely do not

gremy0 8y ago

If your criminal record is truly relevant to the job, then the employer should do the responsible thing and get a proper background check done. Which are factual and non-biased. Such things shouldn't be left up to google page ranking algorithms and media that tends toward sensationalisation. It's lazy and unprofessional. > Why would they hire mark over a similar employee with a clean record? Is it useful to have people with a history of low level crime habitually unemployable. Don't we want to reduce crime. > Mark needs to be given the opportunity to demonstrate to an employer hes no longer a cookie monster. Mark is innocent of further crimes until he is convicted and the employer would need to have reasonable cause to discriminate against him. We have parole and other such mechanisms where official bodies can decide how long a person needs to speed demonstrating they are no longer a criminal, and make sure the relevant people are aware of this. Why leave it up to some random employer armed with google. > He would do this by taking a lower than average pay, Why does he deserve lower pay. This is just enabling employers to take advantage of vulnerable people. > and giving the employer the option to terminate his employment at any time without cause. The employer has the right to terminate at any time for mark committing a criminal act. He doesn't need this. Plus this is europe and workers have rights

volak 8y ago
I don't like to break up arguments into tiny pieces and remark on each one - so I'll just wrap this up in 1 thought like a normal person. You are essentially complaining about human nature. Here in reality people want to know if you've violated someone else's trust before trusting you. We are social beings and if you present two people - "This one betrayed a friend, this other one has not" - 99% of people will choose the later. You will never ever convince a majority of people that someone who has demonstrated untrustability should be trusted the same as someone who has not. Regardless of how long he spent in a steel and concrete cage.
- gremy0 8y ago
  You misunderstand, I'm saying there are fair and professional ways to find out if someone is trustworthy. Googling their name, and finding some 5 year old article is not one of these. It presents a incomplete picture that is biased towards attention grabbing material from for-profit media. Use proper background checks and references. There are also fair ways to deal with criminals, and staff you may not trust. Using google results as the bases of randomly deducting pay, removing employment rights, and other discriminatory acts, is not one of these. It would be far too easy for employers to abuse and doesn't lend itself to the employee having stability. This would just increase the chances of the employee returning to crime.

bsder 8y ago

> The problem is future employers don't know if mark made a one time mistake or is a serial cookie monster. Why would they hire mark over a similar employee with a clean record? Because for certain types of cookie monster, those who steal cookies, get caught, and serve their penalty are MORE trustworthy than the population at large.