7 ms·

The fact that you made a new account to comment this indicates to me that I should not assume good faith because I know what you were hinting at: race.

nopressure 8y ago
Yes but if I did say it like that it would've been flagged by now, instead of getting any kind of discussion or rebuttal about it, because that's how the hivemind works. I also don't understand why is it bad faith to say or imply that racial homogeinity leads to better cohesion and in turn more safety and equality. I guess I'll never know because any kind of discussion about that is shut off for some reason.
- PKop 8y ago
  Because we are told and must believe despite contradictory evidence that diversity is always and in every way "our strength". Even though when discussing company hiring practices people switch their rhetoric to proclaim "our culture" is very important and we must keep our company's culture the same, bring on new people slowly as to preserve the culture etc, etc. Interesting cognitive dissonance.
  - chrischen 8y ago
    If you love using evidence then you should probably take a look at it once in a while. It’s no coincidence the economic powerhouses in the US are also the most diverse and progressive places in the US, and that the US is the economic center of the world. Diversity has nothing to do with losing culture. It’s about sharing cultures and understanding other cultures and points of view. Diversity is a fundamental requirement of all life, whether it’s cultural, racial, or cellular and genetic. In all cases diversity increases resilience, whether to new unaccounted for situations or new diseases.
    - milankovic 8y ago
      > It’s no coincidence the economic powerhouses in the US are also the most diverse and progressive places in the US [..] Yeah, right. This has absolutely nothing to do with being 'diverse' and progressive. I don't know what you had in mind (SV?), but this all is caused by stuff that already happened decades ago. This is pretty well documented history. > [..] and that the US is the economic center of the world. Pride goeth before a fall.. And even now, this is only true if you assume certain constraints. For example, manufacturing? Not true anymore, ridiculous to even think that. The same with other domains of the economy, I'm not saying this to attack the US, because I actually love you guys, but you have to deal with some serious issues, because before you realize it you're not the center of the world of anything any longer. It can be awfully quick sometimes.
      - chrischen 8y ago
        > Yeah, right. This has absolutely nothing to do with being 'diverse' and progressive. I don't know what you had in mind (SV?), but this all is caused by stuff that already happened decades ago. This is pretty well documented history. You can believe that it's not due to diversity, but you cannot make the argument that SV's current success is based stuff that happened decades ago. That's like saying the US was founded by white people, ensuring its current success. That would basically claim that everything that followed, all policies, events, progress, had no effect? That would be ludicrous.
    - PKop 8y ago
      Interesting that you shoe-horned economics into a discussion about culture and crime. But anyways, I think Japan, and China would disagree with your arguments. But more importantly, I think it is the political and social realm where "diversity" causes the most friction. Increasingly, much of our political, social, and cultural debates and discussions are focused on diversity and racial issues. The more "diverse" one's citizenry, the more they will be saddled with these kinds of hot-button issues. The more identity groups, the more separate political constituencies will exist. They crowd out, or influence, almost all other discussions around politics and economic. Increasingly social-justice/multiculturalism/diversity is involved with every issue in the political sphere. This is not a positive development. To the degree these kinds of changes happen slowly, the more diverse cultures assimilate to the host culture. Diversity supporters do not generally support limited, slow immigration, but rather open borders.
- chrischen 8y ago
  Because there are clear counterpoints to that. Take the Phillipines, or Mexico. Those countries have high gun ownership, violence, and are pretty homogenous too. If you want a country with white people, take Russia (though I’m not sure how homogenous it is, it’s definitely not US levels of integration). Simply because some homogenous societies have low murder rates doesn’t mean all do, and does not mean the reason is homogeneity. Often white racists in the US make the argument that if there was more homogeneity then there wouldbe less violence. However this shirks the responsibility of the white people for the fact that historically they were the instigators of all racial hate. Black people in America have high crime rates due to systematic and concerted efforts to oppress them over 2 centuries. Blaming that oppression as just some natural unavoidable thing that happens when there is racial integration is what one is trying to do when they argue homogenity is the reason, rather than the belief of racial superiority or hate. If you go to Countries like China, while they can say insensitive things about black people due to the lack of experience interacting with them, they definitely do not harbor any of the American style racial beliefs towards them. Blaming lack of homogeneity as the cause for racial issues is shirking responsibility for causing them.
  - pitiburi 8y ago
    You really, really have your data wrong. Obviously you have a cliché-type idea of what Mexico it's. http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/06/people-mexico-show-stunning-amount-genetic-diversity http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/06/people-mexico-show-st...
    - selimthegrim 8y ago
      Russians aren't homogeneous though?
      - pandaman 8y ago
        Russians are but they are only ~80% of the population of Russia.
        8y ago
PKop 8y ago
He probably knew people wouldn't engage with him in good faith. If you look up crime statistics, there is merit to the argument of homogenous culture = less violent crime. Do you disagree? Take US as an example. We're always described as having a high gun crime and murder rate relative to some other developed nation. But if you control for race, those numbers drop previously when looking at whites only. Is this not a worthy fact to point out? Interesting also that Iceland has high gun ownership rates.. And still very low violent crime.
- fiedzia 8y ago
  > And still very low violent crime Well, part of that is that considering population density, its not so easy for one Icelander to meet another.
- s_kilk 8y ago
  I'm constantly amazed at the amount of phrenology-level discourse we have on this site.
  - rainworld 8y ago
    https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/982072291902345216 https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/982072291902345216 Edit: Make sure you catch Gregory Cochran's reply.

nopressure 8y ago

Yes but if I did say it like that it would've been flagged by now, instead of getting any kind of discussion or rebuttal about it, because that's how the hivemind works. I also don't understand why is it bad faith to say or imply that racial homogeinity leads to better cohesion and in turn more safety and equality. I guess I'll never know because any kind of discussion about that is shut off for some reason.

PKop 8y ago
Because we are told and must believe despite contradictory evidence that diversity is always and in every way "our strength". Even though when discussing company hiring practices people switch their rhetoric to proclaim "our culture" is very important and we must keep our company's culture the same, bring on new people slowly as to preserve the culture etc, etc. Interesting cognitive dissonance.
- chrischen 8y ago
  If you love using evidence then you should probably take a look at it once in a while. It’s no coincidence the economic powerhouses in the US are also the most diverse and progressive places in the US, and that the US is the economic center of the world. Diversity has nothing to do with losing culture. It’s about sharing cultures and understanding other cultures and points of view. Diversity is a fundamental requirement of all life, whether it’s cultural, racial, or cellular and genetic. In all cases diversity increases resilience, whether to new unaccounted for situations or new diseases.
  - milankovic 8y ago
    > It’s no coincidence the economic powerhouses in the US are also the most diverse and progressive places in the US [..] Yeah, right. This has absolutely nothing to do with being 'diverse' and progressive. I don't know what you had in mind (SV?), but this all is caused by stuff that already happened decades ago. This is pretty well documented history. > [..] and that the US is the economic center of the world. Pride goeth before a fall.. And even now, this is only true if you assume certain constraints. For example, manufacturing? Not true anymore, ridiculous to even think that. The same with other domains of the economy, I'm not saying this to attack the US, because I actually love you guys, but you have to deal with some serious issues, because before you realize it you're not the center of the world of anything any longer. It can be awfully quick sometimes.
    - chrischen 8y ago
      > Yeah, right. This has absolutely nothing to do with being 'diverse' and progressive. I don't know what you had in mind (SV?), but this all is caused by stuff that already happened decades ago. This is pretty well documented history. You can believe that it's not due to diversity, but you cannot make the argument that SV's current success is based stuff that happened decades ago. That's like saying the US was founded by white people, ensuring its current success. That would basically claim that everything that followed, all policies, events, progress, had no effect? That would be ludicrous.
  - PKop 8y ago
    Interesting that you shoe-horned economics into a discussion about culture and crime. But anyways, I think Japan, and China would disagree with your arguments. But more importantly, I think it is the political and social realm where "diversity" causes the most friction. Increasingly, much of our political, social, and cultural debates and discussions are focused on diversity and racial issues. The more "diverse" one's citizenry, the more they will be saddled with these kinds of hot-button issues. The more identity groups, the more separate political constituencies will exist. They crowd out, or influence, almost all other discussions around politics and economic. Increasingly social-justice/multiculturalism/diversity is involved with every issue in the political sphere. This is not a positive development. To the degree these kinds of changes happen slowly, the more diverse cultures assimilate to the host culture. Diversity supporters do not generally support limited, slow immigration, but rather open borders.
chrischen 8y ago
Because there are clear counterpoints to that. Take the Phillipines, or Mexico. Those countries have high gun ownership, violence, and are pretty homogenous too. If you want a country with white people, take Russia (though I’m not sure how homogenous it is, it’s definitely not US levels of integration). Simply because some homogenous societies have low murder rates doesn’t mean all do, and does not mean the reason is homogeneity. Often white racists in the US make the argument that if there was more homogeneity then there wouldbe less violence. However this shirks the responsibility of the white people for the fact that historically they were the instigators of all racial hate. Black people in America have high crime rates due to systematic and concerted efforts to oppress them over 2 centuries. Blaming that oppression as just some natural unavoidable thing that happens when there is racial integration is what one is trying to do when they argue homogenity is the reason, rather than the belief of racial superiority or hate. If you go to Countries like China, while they can say insensitive things about black people due to the lack of experience interacting with them, they definitely do not harbor any of the American style racial beliefs towards them. Blaming lack of homogeneity as the cause for racial issues is shirking responsibility for causing them.
- pitiburi 8y ago
  You really, really have your data wrong. Obviously you have a cliché-type idea of what Mexico it's. http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/06/people-mexico-show-stunning-amount-genetic-diversity http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/06/people-mexico-show-st...
  - selimthegrim 8y ago
    Russians aren't homogeneous though?
    - pandaman 8y ago
      Russians are but they are only ~80% of the population of Russia.
      - 8y ago

PKop 8y ago

He probably knew people wouldn't engage with him in good faith. If you look up crime statistics, there is merit to the argument of homogenous culture = less violent crime. Do you disagree? Take US as an example. We're always described as having a high gun crime and murder rate relative to some other developed nation. But if you control for race, those numbers drop previously when looking at whites only. Is this not a worthy fact to point out? Interesting also that Iceland has high gun ownership rates.. And still very low violent crime.

fiedzia 8y ago
> And still very low violent crime Well, part of that is that considering population density, its not so easy for one Icelander to meet another.
s_kilk 8y ago
I'm constantly amazed at the amount of phrenology-level discourse we have on this site.
- rainworld 8y ago
  https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/982072291902345216 https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/982072291902345216 Edit: Make sure you catch Gregory Cochran's reply.