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> I'm not convinced that there are any fundamental differences between US and Australian usage here. Technically that's right, but culturally there is a big di

> I'm not convinced that there are any fundamental differences between US and Australian usage here. Technically that's right, but culturally there is a big difference in my experience (as an Australian who has spent a lot of time in SF Bay Area). In the Bay Area, when people describe where they live they'll refer to their local city/town first - i.e., Palo Alto, San Jose, Oakland, San Mateo, or indeed San Francisco the distinct city. Sure they might refer to the "Bay Area", as a general descriptor of where they live to an outsider, but they wouldn't normally say "I live in San Francisco" if they live in Menlo Park. In Australia, people will primarily describe themselves as living in "Melbourne" or "Sydney", and only if the conversation progresses to which part of that city they live in will they refer to the suburb. Even then they'll talk about the local suburb, which is normally distinct from the municipality, particularly now that the municipalities are quite large and encompass several suburbs.

skissane 9y ago
How people describe where they live depends on who they are talking to. If you live in a given metro area, and you are talking to someone else who you know also lives in that metro area, you are not going to answer "Where do you live?" with the name of the metro area – you are going to describe the part of it in which you live. Conversely, if you are talking to someone who lives on the other side of the country (or the world), you will just name the metro area, because they presumably don't know the geography of that metro area well or at all. And that's true both in the Bay Area and in Sydney too. If you are sitting in an office in Palo Alto, and the person in the next cubicle asks you where you live, you won't say "Bay Area", you'll be more specific. But if you then come on a business trip or holiday to Sydney, and people ask you where you are from, you probably will just say "San Franscisco", because "San Bruno", "Daly City", "Belmont", "Milpitas", "Fremont", "Hayward", etc, means nothing to the average Sydneysider. In the same way, if you are sitting in an office in Sydney CBD, and someone else who you know is local asks you where you live, you aren't going to say "Sydney". You'll say "Castle Hill" or "Bankstown" or "Hurstville" or "Penrith" or "Turramurra" or "Dee Why" or "Woolloomooloo" or whatever. Or maybe you'll give a more regional descriptor, like "North Shore" or "Eastern Suburbs" or "Sutherland" or "Inner West" or "Central Coast" or so on. So I'm unconvinced that this cultural difference you perceive between Australia and the US is actually real.
- tomhoward 9y ago
  I agree with all of what you're saying except this: But if you then come on a business trip or holiday to Sydney, and people ask you where you are from, you probably will just say "San Franscisco" No, people from the Bay Area don't say that, and indeed it's considered by purists to be a faux pas to ever say you live in San Francisco if you live in a different city in the Bay Area. In the context you've described, someone who lives in Mountain View would normally say "I live in the San Francisco Bay Area", or "I live in Mountain View, near San Francisco", but not "I live in San Francisco". Whereas someone who lives in an outer suburb of metropolitan Melbourne or Sydney would just say "I live in Melbourne/Sydney". Let's just remind ourselves why we're having this discussion: the root commenter was explaining for US readers what Australians mean when referring to "Sydney", in this context of discussing the possibility of breaking the city up into three parts. The point stands that the valid US equivalent here would be "San Francisco Bay Area", not "San Francisco".
  - skissane 9y ago
    To what extent is what you are talking about a feature of American English in general, or a feature of Bay Area usage specifically? Is it universally true that in American English, if a person lives in X metro area but not in X proper, they would never say "I live in X"?
    - tomhoward 9y ago
      I was going to expand on that but didn't want to go overboard on the comment length! This custom is not confined to the Bay Area, but it does vary from place to place. It's not a function of American English, it's about the culture and governance structure of the area in question. Someone from Brooklyn, New York might describe their home locality as "Brooklyn" or "New York City" (or indeed their neighbourhood in Brooklyn, e.g, Williamsburg). But it's perfectly valid for a person from Brooklyn or Manhattan or Queens to say "I live in New York City" as the five boroughs are all contained within the municipality of NYC. In Los Angeles, someone from Santa Monica or Beverly Hills might just say to a foreigner "I live in Los Angeles" for simplicity, even though they're separate municipalities from the City of Los Angeles, though they're all within Los Angeles County. Whereas someone in Pasadena or Malibu would more likely name that as their home town, even though they're also in Los Angeles County. I'm not so familiar with specific customs in many other major metropolises, but certainly the metro areas of Seattle and Boston are collections of separate cities - I.e., Redmond, Washington and Cambridge, Massachusetts are referred to by name as distinct from Seattle and Boston respectively. But I'll again remind you of the whole point of this discussion: in Australia we have a fairly straightforward understanding of what is meant by city names like Melbourne or Sydney for the purpose of discussing a topic like this news story: it refers to the greater metropolitan area. In the US it is less straightforward and sometimes quite different depending on where you're talking about, e.g., SF Bay Area, hence the root commenter's helpful clarification for US readers.

skissane 9y ago

How people describe where they live depends on who they are talking to. If you live in a given metro area, and you are talking to someone else who you know also lives in that metro area, you are not going to answer "Where do you live?" with the name of the metro area – you are going to describe the part of it in which you live. Conversely, if you are talking to someone who lives on the other side of the country (or the world), you will just name the metro area, because they presumably don't know the geography of that metro area well or at all. And that's true both in the Bay Area and in Sydney too. If you are sitting in an office in Palo Alto, and the person in the next cubicle asks you where you live, you won't say "Bay Area", you'll be more specific. But if you then come on a business trip or holiday to Sydney, and people ask you where you are from, you probably will just say "San Franscisco", because "San Bruno", "Daly City", "Belmont", "Milpitas", "Fremont", "Hayward", etc, means nothing to the average Sydneysider. In the same way, if you are sitting in an office in Sydney CBD, and someone else who you know is local asks you where you live, you aren't going to say "Sydney". You'll say "Castle Hill" or "Bankstown" or "Hurstville" or "Penrith" or "Turramurra" or "Dee Why" or "Woolloomooloo" or whatever. Or maybe you'll give a more regional descriptor, like "North Shore" or "Eastern Suburbs" or "Sutherland" or "Inner West" or "Central Coast" or so on. So I'm unconvinced that this cultural difference you perceive between Australia and the US is actually real.

tomhoward 9y ago
I agree with all of what you're saying except this: But if you then come on a business trip or holiday to Sydney, and people ask you where you are from, you probably will just say "San Franscisco" No, people from the Bay Area don't say that, and indeed it's considered by purists to be a faux pas to ever say you live in San Francisco if you live in a different city in the Bay Area. In the context you've described, someone who lives in Mountain View would normally say "I live in the San Francisco Bay Area", or "I live in Mountain View, near San Francisco", but not "I live in San Francisco". Whereas someone who lives in an outer suburb of metropolitan Melbourne or Sydney would just say "I live in Melbourne/Sydney". Let's just remind ourselves why we're having this discussion: the root commenter was explaining for US readers what Australians mean when referring to "Sydney", in this context of discussing the possibility of breaking the city up into three parts. The point stands that the valid US equivalent here would be "San Francisco Bay Area", not "San Francisco".
- skissane 9y ago
  To what extent is what you are talking about a feature of American English in general, or a feature of Bay Area usage specifically? Is it universally true that in American English, if a person lives in X metro area but not in X proper, they would never say "I live in X"?
  - tomhoward 9y ago
    I was going to expand on that but didn't want to go overboard on the comment length! This custom is not confined to the Bay Area, but it does vary from place to place. It's not a function of American English, it's about the culture and governance structure of the area in question. Someone from Brooklyn, New York might describe their home locality as "Brooklyn" or "New York City" (or indeed their neighbourhood in Brooklyn, e.g, Williamsburg). But it's perfectly valid for a person from Brooklyn or Manhattan or Queens to say "I live in New York City" as the five boroughs are all contained within the municipality of NYC. In Los Angeles, someone from Santa Monica or Beverly Hills might just say to a foreigner "I live in Los Angeles" for simplicity, even though they're separate municipalities from the City of Los Angeles, though they're all within Los Angeles County. Whereas someone in Pasadena or Malibu would more likely name that as their home town, even though they're also in Los Angeles County. I'm not so familiar with specific customs in many other major metropolises, but certainly the metro areas of Seattle and Boston are collections of separate cities - I.e., Redmond, Washington and Cambridge, Massachusetts are referred to by name as distinct from Seattle and Boston respectively. But I'll again remind you of the whole point of this discussion: in Australia we have a fairly straightforward understanding of what is meant by city names like Melbourne or Sydney for the purpose of discussing a topic like this news story: it refers to the greater metropolitan area. In the US it is less straightforward and sometimes quite different depending on where you're talking about, e.g., SF Bay Area, hence the root commenter's helpful clarification for US readers.