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Ride-sharing, like a fry cook, was never meant to be a life’s career ambition. Jeez people. Folks are complaining that a fry cook can’t afford to buy a house an

by aksss 9y ago

Ride-sharing, like a fry cook, was never meant to be a life’s career ambition. Jeez people. Folks are complaining that a fry cook can’t afford to buy a house and an Uber driver doesn’t get a 401(k). Wake up and smell the coffee. Let these positions continue to function as gap-filling opportunities for the young and those who need massive flexibility or want side-hustles. We drive up employment cost massively and wonder why less people get employed. We come up with creative opportunities like ride-sharing and then try to kneecap it. Guess what? Driving cars for hire has always been a shit way to make a living, ask anyone who’s driven cab. Now some dim people are shocked their career ambitions can’t end with Uber? Let them learn that lesson and move on. We don’t need to anihilate the awesomeness that is Uber and the benefit it has for drivers who use it with the proper expectations.

bkor 9y ago
> Let these positions continue to function as gap-filling opportunities for the young and those who need massive flexibility or want side-hustles. It seems pretty clear that instead of letting people be underpaid (which affects the economy badly anyway) they prefer people to be paid properly. In Netherlands there's a proposal that employers who use flex workers should actually pay more social benefits for such people. This as these workers will likely need more social security. That cost needs to be on the employer, plus it'll encourage companies to hire people on a permanent contract.
- dannyw 9y ago
  Or the costs push companies or of business and less jobs exist.
  - jiveturkey 9y ago
    less of that type of job
  - seanccox 9y ago
    This is a common misunderstanding about the relationships between companies, employees, and markets. Companies aren't the originators of jobs. Instead, demand for goods/services can reach a threshold that makes corporate organization for profit viable, and in so doing, requires that employees be hired to fill the demand. If there isn't demand for a good/service, then even a company that is providing it will be unable to pay people. On the other hand, if demand for that good/service exceeds the capacity of the company, they will hire more people (and/or more companies will be created to compete for business).
    - manigandham 9y ago
      That demand is not in a vacuum, it also depends greatly on price. Increasing prices will reduce demand, and thereby reduce viability.
      - WorldMaker 9y ago
        Except that it is not that simple either, because prices don't live in a vacuum. Demand is also affected by people's ability to spend. People with insecure lifestyles are less likely to spend. People whose entire lives are spent working just to make a livable wage aren't likely to spend much beyond bare necessities.
    - zdragnar 9y ago
      Price increases to accommodate higher wages will drive down demand. The net result is fewer jobs, or replacing those jobs with other things... Robotic fry cooks aren't economical at current wages, but from what I've heard it's a near thing.
  - Slansitartop 9y ago
    That's not a bad thing IMHO. I think the world could do with fewer underpaid jobs with no advancement opportunities. Edit: Looks like some founders looking to create underpaid jobs with no advancement opportunities found my comment /s.
raducu 9y ago
Isn't all of this true for a lot of jobs? Janitor, picking up fruits, garbage man and so on and so on. These are all jobs, these are people working, of course in this day and age everyone should make a decent living wage. Uber drivers are no more contractors than factory workers, they're not ride-sharing anything, they are (exploited) taxi drivers. This contractor/temp bullshit thing reeks of dark age mentality -- mistress vs wife, bastard vs legal heir.
- toddBarkus 9y ago
  It's the aspect of personal choice that you're skipping over. Uber drivers made the choice to apply to work as "independent contractors" and agreed to the terms. A bastard child has no agency in the arrangement, but a mistress likely did agree to the arrangement. There's no fair expectation of the latter to be retroactively or otherwise considered a legal spouse, nor is it just for a contractor to sue to force others to change classification.
  - drunkenmonkey 9y ago
    These people did not choose to be born poor.
    - toddBarkus 9y ago
      They chose to accept Uber's deal. Don't strawman
      - drunkenmonkey 9y ago
        Heartless and out of touch with the needs of the general public. Guess that happens when you forget what it means to struggle to pay both rent and health insurance. When you see a poor person struggling, remember that your public arguments contributed to their plight. If that even resonates with you.
        toddBarkus 9y ago
busterarm 9y ago
> Driving cars for hire has always been a shit way to make a living, ask anyone who’s driven cab. Lol, nope. My (single) mother drove a NYC taxi cab from 1978 through 1992 (after previous careers playing in orchestras, selling commercial real estate and being a corporate comptroller). The money she earned doing that raised two sons; she was able to invest in 6 medallions (though she was ripped off by her business partner, that's another story) and eventually helped her go back to nursing school. Many, many cab drivers used to be able raise families on their income. In the 1980s it was a pretty decent, albeit dangerous, way to make a living. There were even whole city blocks, in Midtown, where all/virtually-all of the businesses were related to taxi service and repair (38th street on 10th avenue and another in the mid-60s on I think 3rd or 1st). In the 90s, for whatever reason that started to become untenable and a rapid exodus of Sikh cab drivers began where they moved their families to New Jersey and started doing black car elsewhere.
- pnw_hazor 9y ago
  Not in Seattle or just about anywhere else the US. Befofe Uber, unless you were at one of the few cabs stands, waiting 1 hour for a cab, that may or may not even show up was not uncommon. Uber and Lyft have changed people's lives in most places they operate.
  - busterarm 9y ago
    lolwut How long you had to wait for a cab has nothing to do with driving a cab being a good income. I've been in cabs pre-Uber all across the US. In places like Buffalo, Albany (any college town, really), all over Long Island, DC, LA, etc., I've talked to loads of cab drivers pre-Uber and they were making okay money. I used to take 20-minute cab trips in Long Island that cost $100. The zone and per passenger system in Albany made fares very expensive. I knew a student cabbie in Buffalo who paid his tuition and then some ferrying drunks between the campus' and the bars.
    - pnw_hazor 9y ago
      Airline pilots used to make more money too when airline pricing was regulated. Cabs suck ass in most areas of the country because of government regulations granted them exclusive rights at the expense of the consumer. Turns out the consumer will use Uber or Lyft instead of cabs if given a choice. Nothing is stopping cabs from competing. Also, see Cable TV/broadband Companies.
brightball 9y ago
What I will never understand is simply this: 1. A position is advertised as independent contractor 2. A person chooses to fill the job as an independent contractor while being compensated EXACTLY as agreed 3. The person sues to be considered an employee In situations like that, it’s really difficult for me to side with anyone but the business.
- throwaway2048 9y ago
  you are totally failing to consider the coersive power employers have, especially at the low end of employment. When every job you can get sucks, what are you going to choose to do if the terms are massively unfair and inequitable? starve to death?
- Spivak 9y ago
  Because labels don't really matter. If they walk and talk like employees it doesn't really matter what the company calls them. Check out Exhibits 2/3 and decide for yourself what side you think Uber drivers fall on. https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2002/01/art1full.pdf https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2002/01/art1full.pdf
gerbilly 9y ago
>Ride-sharing, like a fry cook, was never meant to be a life’s career ambition. Jeez people. Folks are complaining that a fry cook can’t afford to buy a house and an Uber driver doesn’t get a 401(k). Wake up and smell the coffee. Wouldn't it be nice if you could make a living being a 'fry cook?' When you leave work you could just kiss off and go have dinner, go bowling or whatever. Each day would be self contained. There wouldn't be bad dreams tossing and tuning you because your project isn't going well at work. Why do we celebrate this race to the bottom? There have been such stunning increases in productivity, so in theory we could all work a few hours a week and enjoy 1950s living standards. Would that be so bad?
- throwaway2048 9y ago
  it would be bad for the profit margins of the 1%
- prostoalex 9y ago
  > Wouldn't it be nice if you could make a living being a 'fry cook?' There's no law preventing you (or anyone else) from opening (or co-investing in) a food establishment that pays high salaries and provides benefits to fry cooks.
  - Namrog84 9y ago
    Exactly. It's a nice thing to say until someone proposes it being done. I think most people don't realize how thin the margins really are on food services stuff. Or even most services. To increase salary of fry cooks and drivers to be better. You need to charge more. But if everyone else is already on tight budgets then they also need increases in salary as well. And now it becomes a bigger economical issue. I know it's not a zero sum game and I'd like to see everyone's wages increase. But it's a hard bigger problem.
    - prostoalex 9y ago
      If society was interested in maximizing the sheer quantity of fried cooks, society would’ve created those incentives. Instead three sets of incentives exist nowadays: 1) Improve your skill set and move up within restaurant industry, hopefully towards high-end cuisine or managerial position. 2) Get out of the industry altogether and acquire some specialization like a plumber’s or electrician’s license. 3) Use the paid gig to acquire skills, remain in the industry but readjust your stake to equity instead of salary, by running a food truck, a burger stand or a pop-up taco spot. All venues pretty much scream “Get out of this fry cook gig as soon as you can. There’s no outcome where you’re guaranteed a happy retirement and a golden watch”.
bln_wgc 9y ago
My question is: what do people think a "fair" hourly earnings level should be for a ridesharing driver? Given that it is a job which requires no educational or professional qualifications or experience, (only a driver's license and a clean background check), has an acceptance rate of basically 100%, and has flexibility to work any # of hours whenever you want (which surely has some $ utility) -- the $18-20 earnings per hour and $10-12 profit per hour averages that we've seen from multiple studies seems about right to me. That works out to $35k-50k a year, but without benefits. I strongly believe everyone below ~$50-60k a year in the US should be paid more, but that's a separate conversation. In a world where teachers, firefighters, policemen, social workers etc. earn $35-50k a year + benefits, it feels wrong to complain about ridesharing drivers making $35k-50k a year without benefits.
- gowld 9y ago
  Teachers, firefighters and policemen make about $100K/yr after expenses for full time work in ur an areas like SF.
youpassbutter 9y ago
> Driving cars for hire has always been a shit way to make a living There are plenty of drivers who made a good living. I had a friend in college from britain. His father was a taxi driver and who was able to provide for his stay at home wife, send his 3 kids to college ( one to NYC ) and buy a vacation home in spain. A solid middle class living as a taxi driver. So your premise about drivers always making shit pay is verifiably false. But I do agree with you that uber is a disruptive technology and a middle class life as a driver is not something that can be maintain in today's environment.

by aksss 9y ago

bkor 9y ago

> Let these positions continue to function as gap-filling opportunities for the young and those who need massive flexibility or want side-hustles. It seems pretty clear that instead of letting people be underpaid (which affects the economy badly anyway) they prefer people to be paid properly. In Netherlands there's a proposal that employers who use flex workers should actually pay more social benefits for such people. This as these workers will likely need more social security. That cost needs to be on the employer, plus it'll encourage companies to hire people on a permanent contract.

dannyw 9y ago
Or the costs push companies or of business and less jobs exist.
- jiveturkey 9y ago
  less of that type of job
- seanccox 9y ago
  This is a common misunderstanding about the relationships between companies, employees, and markets. Companies aren't the originators of jobs. Instead, demand for goods/services can reach a threshold that makes corporate organization for profit viable, and in so doing, requires that employees be hired to fill the demand. If there isn't demand for a good/service, then even a company that is providing it will be unable to pay people. On the other hand, if demand for that good/service exceeds the capacity of the company, they will hire more people (and/or more companies will be created to compete for business).
  - manigandham 9y ago
    That demand is not in a vacuum, it also depends greatly on price. Increasing prices will reduce demand, and thereby reduce viability.
    - WorldMaker 9y ago
      Except that it is not that simple either, because prices don't live in a vacuum. Demand is also affected by people's ability to spend. People with insecure lifestyles are less likely to spend. People whose entire lives are spent working just to make a livable wage aren't likely to spend much beyond bare necessities.
  - zdragnar 9y ago
    Price increases to accommodate higher wages will drive down demand. The net result is fewer jobs, or replacing those jobs with other things... Robotic fry cooks aren't economical at current wages, but from what I've heard it's a near thing.
- Slansitartop 9y ago
  That's not a bad thing IMHO. I think the world could do with fewer underpaid jobs with no advancement opportunities. Edit: Looks like some founders looking to create underpaid jobs with no advancement opportunities found my comment /s.

raducu 9y ago

Isn't all of this true for a lot of jobs? Janitor, picking up fruits, garbage man and so on and so on. These are all jobs, these are people working, of course in this day and age everyone should make a decent living wage. Uber drivers are no more contractors than factory workers, they're not ride-sharing anything, they are (exploited) taxi drivers. This contractor/temp bullshit thing reeks of dark age mentality -- mistress vs wife, bastard vs legal heir.

toddBarkus 9y ago
It's the aspect of personal choice that you're skipping over. Uber drivers made the choice to apply to work as "independent contractors" and agreed to the terms. A bastard child has no agency in the arrangement, but a mistress likely did agree to the arrangement. There's no fair expectation of the latter to be retroactively or otherwise considered a legal spouse, nor is it just for a contractor to sue to force others to change classification.
- drunkenmonkey 9y ago
  These people did not choose to be born poor.
  - toddBarkus 9y ago
    They chose to accept Uber's deal. Don't strawman
    - drunkenmonkey 9y ago
      Heartless and out of touch with the needs of the general public. Guess that happens when you forget what it means to struggle to pay both rent and health insurance. When you see a poor person struggling, remember that your public arguments contributed to their plight. If that even resonates with you.
      - toddBarkus 9y ago

busterarm 9y ago

> Driving cars for hire has always been a shit way to make a living, ask anyone who’s driven cab. Lol, nope. My (single) mother drove a NYC taxi cab from 1978 through 1992 (after previous careers playing in orchestras, selling commercial real estate and being a corporate comptroller). The money she earned doing that raised two sons; she was able to invest in 6 medallions (though she was ripped off by her business partner, that's another story) and eventually helped her go back to nursing school. Many, many cab drivers used to be able raise families on their income. In the 1980s it was a pretty decent, albeit dangerous, way to make a living. There were even whole city blocks, in Midtown, where all/virtually-all of the businesses were related to taxi service and repair (38th street on 10th avenue and another in the mid-60s on I think 3rd or 1st). In the 90s, for whatever reason that started to become untenable and a rapid exodus of Sikh cab drivers began where they moved their families to New Jersey and started doing black car elsewhere.

pnw_hazor 9y ago
Not in Seattle or just about anywhere else the US. Befofe Uber, unless you were at one of the few cabs stands, waiting 1 hour for a cab, that may or may not even show up was not uncommon. Uber and Lyft have changed people's lives in most places they operate.
- busterarm 9y ago
  lolwut How long you had to wait for a cab has nothing to do with driving a cab being a good income. I've been in cabs pre-Uber all across the US. In places like Buffalo, Albany (any college town, really), all over Long Island, DC, LA, etc., I've talked to loads of cab drivers pre-Uber and they were making okay money. I used to take 20-minute cab trips in Long Island that cost $100. The zone and per passenger system in Albany made fares very expensive. I knew a student cabbie in Buffalo who paid his tuition and then some ferrying drunks between the campus' and the bars.
  - pnw_hazor 9y ago
    Airline pilots used to make more money too when airline pricing was regulated. Cabs suck ass in most areas of the country because of government regulations granted them exclusive rights at the expense of the consumer. Turns out the consumer will use Uber or Lyft instead of cabs if given a choice. Nothing is stopping cabs from competing. Also, see Cable TV/broadband Companies.

brightball 9y ago

What I will never understand is simply this: 1. A position is advertised as independent contractor 2. A person chooses to fill the job as an independent contractor while being compensated EXACTLY as agreed 3. The person sues to be considered an employee In situations like that, it’s really difficult for me to side with anyone but the business.

throwaway2048 9y ago
you are totally failing to consider the coersive power employers have, especially at the low end of employment. When every job you can get sucks, what are you going to choose to do if the terms are massively unfair and inequitable? starve to death?
Spivak 9y ago
Because labels don't really matter. If they walk and talk like employees it doesn't really matter what the company calls them. Check out Exhibits 2/3 and decide for yourself what side you think Uber drivers fall on. https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2002/01/art1full.pdf https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2002/01/art1full.pdf

gerbilly 9y ago

>Ride-sharing, like a fry cook, was never meant to be a life’s career ambition. Jeez people. Folks are complaining that a fry cook can’t afford to buy a house and an Uber driver doesn’t get a 401(k). Wake up and smell the coffee. Wouldn't it be nice if you could make a living being a 'fry cook?' When you leave work you could just kiss off and go have dinner, go bowling or whatever. Each day would be self contained. There wouldn't be bad dreams tossing and tuning you because your project isn't going well at work. Why do we celebrate this race to the bottom? There have been such stunning increases in productivity, so in theory we could all work a few hours a week and enjoy 1950s living standards. Would that be so bad?

throwaway2048 9y ago
it would be bad for the profit margins of the 1%
prostoalex 9y ago
> Wouldn't it be nice if you could make a living being a 'fry cook?' There's no law preventing you (or anyone else) from opening (or co-investing in) a food establishment that pays high salaries and provides benefits to fry cooks.
- Namrog84 9y ago
  Exactly. It's a nice thing to say until someone proposes it being done. I think most people don't realize how thin the margins really are on food services stuff. Or even most services. To increase salary of fry cooks and drivers to be better. You need to charge more. But if everyone else is already on tight budgets then they also need increases in salary as well. And now it becomes a bigger economical issue. I know it's not a zero sum game and I'd like to see everyone's wages increase. But it's a hard bigger problem.
  - prostoalex 9y ago
    If society was interested in maximizing the sheer quantity of fried cooks, society would’ve created those incentives. Instead three sets of incentives exist nowadays: 1) Improve your skill set and move up within restaurant industry, hopefully towards high-end cuisine or managerial position. 2) Get out of the industry altogether and acquire some specialization like a plumber’s or electrician’s license. 3) Use the paid gig to acquire skills, remain in the industry but readjust your stake to equity instead of salary, by running a food truck, a burger stand or a pop-up taco spot. All venues pretty much scream “Get out of this fry cook gig as soon as you can. There’s no outcome where you’re guaranteed a happy retirement and a golden watch”.

bln_wgc 9y ago

My question is: what do people think a "fair" hourly earnings level should be for a ridesharing driver? Given that it is a job which requires no educational or professional qualifications or experience, (only a driver's license and a clean background check), has an acceptance rate of basically 100%, and has flexibility to work any # of hours whenever you want (which surely has some $ utility) -- the $18-20 earnings per hour and $10-12 profit per hour averages that we've seen from multiple studies seems about right to me. That works out to $35k-50k a year, but without benefits. I strongly believe everyone below ~$50-60k a year in the US should be paid more, but that's a separate conversation. In a world where teachers, firefighters, policemen, social workers etc. earn $35-50k a year + benefits, it feels wrong to complain about ridesharing drivers making $35k-50k a year without benefits.

gowld 9y ago
Teachers, firefighters and policemen make about $100K/yr after expenses for full time work in ur an areas like SF.

youpassbutter 9y ago

> Driving cars for hire has always been a shit way to make a living There are plenty of drivers who made a good living. I had a friend in college from britain. His father was a taxi driver and who was able to provide for his stay at home wife, send his 3 kids to college ( one to NYC ) and buy a vacation home in spain. A solid middle class living as a taxi driver. So your premise about drivers always making shit pay is verifiably false. But I do agree with you that uber is a disruptive technology and a middle class life as a driver is not something that can be maintain in today's environment.