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Yea thanks, that is exactly my point; warped space produces illusory concepts of reality. So, an apparent illusion of disagreement seems to have occurred ;-)

• roywiggins 9y ago
  Right, but you seemed to be arguing that illusory images meant that the curvature itself was illusory, whereas in my toy universe space really is toroidal, and anyone using the existence of multiple images to suggest otherwise would be wrong (because I set up the universe that way). In fact, such images would be convenient evidence that space was actually toroidal. I don't see how Einstein rings are any different- they can't be evidence against actual curvature of actual spacetime. You'd expect double and triple images if spacetime was curved. One prediction of GR is that if there were enough mass in the universe, the global curvature would be positive everywhere and the universe would close in on itself and be connected more like a sphere than a plane. If you moved in a straight line you would eventually return to your starting point. That doesn't seem to be the universe we live in (as far as anyone can tell, it's flat) but that certainly seems like a prediction about the actual curvature of actual spacetime.
  • stareatgoats 9y ago
    I don't seem to be able to get my point across, but thanks for playing anyway. I really believe this point is of some philosophical and ultimately scientific value, however still largely misunderstood, but didn't really expect a forum comment (albeit on HN) to make a significant dent. Have a good day!