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> The drivers work when they want to and are free to nap, run personal errands, or smoke cigarettes in between rides, Baylson said. Interesting. If that makes

> The drivers work when they want to and are free to nap, run personal errands, or smoke cigarettes in between rides, Baylson said. Interesting. If that makes you not an employee then half the flexible working time companies don't have employees :)

chrischen 9y ago
What are flexible working time companies?
- polskibus 9y ago
  I guess the parent meant come in between 8-10 leave 8hrs later?
  - regularfry 9y ago
    Or "As long as you've clocked 40 hours in a week, we don't care when".
- gizmo686 9y ago
  You don't have set hours. In my experience (as a software engineer) most companies take a hybrid approach, where they define a few core hours a day when you are supposed to be working (to assure that everyone is in at the same time for at least part of the day), but let you decide when to put in the majority of your hours.
  - walshemj 9y ago
    Which is the basis of all salaried jobs ie you don't have fixed hours of work
    - jiveturkey 9y ago
      my guess is most (by far) salaried jobs are not flex time. certainly flex hours is not the basis of all salaried jobs. to pick a job at random: teachers are salaried. they certainly have fixed working hours.
      - walshemj 9y ago
        That's picking a rather specialised nich career which doesn't prove the point.
    - toddBarkus 9y ago
      A salaried structure is not the same thing as unset hours. This is a pretty standard misconception of people new to the workforce.
      - walshemj 9y ago
        It is in the UK and my last contract it explicity said "no fixed hours of work". You can't be unprofessional about it and take the piss an not get sacked for cause but you cant micro mange and try and fire some one for being 5 mins late.
db48x 9y ago
If that were all that mattered, then sure. There are a dozen or so other considerations.
- rtpg 9y ago
  The thing is that when you go down the list of employee classifications, Uber looks in a worse off, not a better off, position. Uber basically decides the interaction with the client. They place relatively strict conditions on how to deliver the service (can only use these kinds of cars, etc). Uber guides almost all parts of the service. Another that doesn't get talked about a lot: This is Uber's main business. Uber is essentially a car-rental service. The fact that the drivers are providing the primary service of Uber is another potential indicator that the drivers are, in fact, employees. The very flexible schedule + commission-based payments are more evidence of a contractor relationship, of couse.
  - db48x 9y ago
    The drivers also provide the cars (a necessary and quite substantial capital asset), and it's very easy for a driver to work for multiple ride-sharing companies at once. A driver could easily lose money by accepting rides that don't earn them enough to pay for gas and maintenance. (On the other hand, the laws around here don't allow a taxi driver to reject a hire based on the destination, which is why the price has a per-mile component.)
icantdrive55 9y ago
They have to secure a expensive Uber approved vechicle. (I have known people who declared their first bankruptcy because of this pustule of a company.) Minimum requirements: "Model year 2006 or newer unless otherwise stated (NOTE: Some vehicle models have a higher minimum year requirement) 4-door car or minivan Seats and seatbelts for at least 4 passengers and a driver Good condition with no cosmetic damage No commercial branding See below for a list of eligible vehicles." 1. This Uber requirement to drive has always struck me the wrong way--when you claim Independent Contractor status. (I believe they recently lowered the age of the required vechicle?) 2. If a vechicle is safe to drive, and carry passengers according to the state it's in; Uber shouldn't have a say to what vechicle shows up. If the state says my vechicle is safe, Uber needs to just add the vechicle to the app, if they are truly hiring Independent Contractors? I have no problem with a safety check. I have a problem when they tell drivers what vechicle is necessary. And it's a aesthetic requirement--usually. The Nervous Nelly, "Oh my goodness--what if a ugly/unsafe vechicle arrives?" 1. That's why most states have a regulated taxi laws. End of debate. (It's just when you have money, and something people like; you usually get your way, usually at the Side Hustler's detriment? But why are they signing up? The real economy is horrid, and this is a step up from begging.) 2. Plus, Uber definetly has the tech to allow the customer to view the vechicle before hiring the drivers. Swip--swip--until a Independent Contractor's vechicle strikes the customers fancy? 3. The strict vechicle requirement is my biggest gripe when they claim Independent Contractor status.
- namdnay 9y ago
  That requirement is quite common in the "branded chauffeur" space though... Take the drivers that Emirates send when you fly business - They're never employed by Emirates (either employees or subcontractors of the cab company that has the Emirates deal for that airport), and yet the requirements are very strict: Black E or S class, less than 3 years old, magazines and water bottles etc.
gowld 9y ago
Yes, the Reuters article deeply mischaracteried the actual ruling, sadly.

chrischen 9y ago

What are flexible working time companies?

polskibus 9y ago
I guess the parent meant come in between 8-10 leave 8hrs later?
- regularfry 9y ago
  Or "As long as you've clocked 40 hours in a week, we don't care when".
gizmo686 9y ago
You don't have set hours. In my experience (as a software engineer) most companies take a hybrid approach, where they define a few core hours a day when you are supposed to be working (to assure that everyone is in at the same time for at least part of the day), but let you decide when to put in the majority of your hours.
- walshemj 9y ago
  Which is the basis of all salaried jobs ie you don't have fixed hours of work
  - jiveturkey 9y ago
    my guess is most (by far) salaried jobs are not flex time. certainly flex hours is not the basis of all salaried jobs. to pick a job at random: teachers are salaried. they certainly have fixed working hours.
    - walshemj 9y ago
      That's picking a rather specialised nich career which doesn't prove the point.
  - toddBarkus 9y ago
    A salaried structure is not the same thing as unset hours. This is a pretty standard misconception of people new to the workforce.
    - walshemj 9y ago
      It is in the UK and my last contract it explicity said "no fixed hours of work". You can't be unprofessional about it and take the piss an not get sacked for cause but you cant micro mange and try and fire some one for being 5 mins late.

db48x 9y ago

If that were all that mattered, then sure. There are a dozen or so other considerations.

rtpg 9y ago
The thing is that when you go down the list of employee classifications, Uber looks in a worse off, not a better off, position. Uber basically decides the interaction with the client. They place relatively strict conditions on how to deliver the service (can only use these kinds of cars, etc). Uber guides almost all parts of the service. Another that doesn't get talked about a lot: This is Uber's main business. Uber is essentially a car-rental service. The fact that the drivers are providing the primary service of Uber is another potential indicator that the drivers are, in fact, employees. The very flexible schedule + commission-based payments are more evidence of a contractor relationship, of couse.
- db48x 9y ago
  The drivers also provide the cars (a necessary and quite substantial capital asset), and it's very easy for a driver to work for multiple ride-sharing companies at once. A driver could easily lose money by accepting rides that don't earn them enough to pay for gas and maintenance. (On the other hand, the laws around here don't allow a taxi driver to reject a hire based on the destination, which is why the price has a per-mile component.)

icantdrive55 9y ago

They have to secure a expensive Uber approved vechicle. (I have known people who declared their first bankruptcy because of this pustule of a company.) Minimum requirements: "Model year 2006 or newer unless otherwise stated (NOTE: Some vehicle models have a higher minimum year requirement) 4-door car or minivan Seats and seatbelts for at least 4 passengers and a driver Good condition with no cosmetic damage No commercial branding See below for a list of eligible vehicles." 1. This Uber requirement to drive has always struck me the wrong way--when you claim Independent Contractor status. (I believe they recently lowered the age of the required vechicle?) 2. If a vechicle is safe to drive, and carry passengers according to the state it's in; Uber shouldn't have a say to what vechicle shows up. If the state says my vechicle is safe, Uber needs to just add the vechicle to the app, if they are truly hiring Independent Contractors? I have no problem with a safety check. I have a problem when they tell drivers what vechicle is necessary. And it's a aesthetic requirement--usually. The Nervous Nelly, "Oh my goodness--what if a ugly/unsafe vechicle arrives?" 1. That's why most states have a regulated taxi laws. End of debate. (It's just when you have money, and something people like; you usually get your way, usually at the Side Hustler's detriment? But why are they signing up? The real economy is horrid, and this is a step up from begging.) 2. Plus, Uber definetly has the tech to allow the customer to view the vechicle before hiring the drivers. Swip--swip--until a Independent Contractor's vechicle strikes the customers fancy? 3. The strict vechicle requirement is my biggest gripe when they claim Independent Contractor status.

namdnay 9y ago
That requirement is quite common in the "branded chauffeur" space though... Take the drivers that Emirates send when you fly business - They're never employed by Emirates (either employees or subcontractors of the cab company that has the Emirates deal for that airport), and yet the requirements are very strict: Black E or S class, less than 3 years old, magazines and water bottles etc.

gowld 9y ago

Yes, the Reuters article deeply mischaracteried the actual ruling, sadly.