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When people refer to prohibitions failing, they're generally referring to consensual or victimless crimes: drugs, alcohol, (non-coerced) prostitution, gambling,

When people refer to prohibitions failing, they're generally referring to consensual or victimless crimes: drugs, alcohol, (non-coerced) prostitution, gambling, etc. That's not the case here. Coercion and violence are component to human trafficking. Taking down Backpage and similar websites isn't "prohibition" any more than laws against murder are.

busterarm 9y ago
And I think you missed the point completely and that's exactly why my comment had to be made. The fact that you use murder here is a perfect example. Prohibition measures are all about restricting the availability of something to curb the desire of it. With the sole exception of the Quaalude, it has never worked. A single government had to convince a global industry to stop its production entirely. There were only like 7 or 9 labs making it though. Oh and with designer drug labs in China, you can actually get ludes made now if you're clever. Human trafficking, coercion and violence is a side-effect of a desire creating a market. Driving that market underground will not eliminate the market, you have to eliminate peoples' desire for that thing. You can't globally stop the production of human beings to curtail this market like they did with Quaaludes... Murder is just about the freest, easiest thing you can do if that's your desire. Murder rates are on the decline because it's just something not that many people want to do anymore.
- creddit 9y ago
  See Singapore's drug use policies.
  - busterarm 9y ago
    Which are the complete opposite of prohibition. Singapore's policies have nothing to do with restricting access. They're torture, life imprisonment or the death penalty. Apples to Oranges.
    - creddit 9y ago
      I'm very confused by how you mean this. I don't see why the type of penalties used means the policies aren't for restricting access under your definitions. It seems abundantly clear to me that they restrict access by making it so immensely costly to traffic drugs (ie provide access to drugs) that few are willing to do it. This is criminal justice 101 stuff.
- jakelazaroff 9y ago
  The crux of the prohibition argument is this: > Human trafficking, coercion and violence is a side-effect of a desire creating a market. But this will never be a legitimate market. We're talking about money being exchanged for sex with children. That is inherently violent, and has absolutely nothing to do with whatever market may or may not exist. The argument against prohibition is that making the thing illegal is more harmful than regulating it. That's not the case with murder, and it's not the case with human trafficking — any occurrence of it is harmful, regardless of how you regulate it.
  - anonbanker 9y ago
    This is the most clever "No True Scottsman" fallacy I've ever seen.
    - jakelazaroff 9y ago
      Are you talking about my excluding murder and human trafficking from the definition of "prohibition"? That's not a "No True Scotsman" fallacy. They're illegal, but it's disingenuous to say laws against them are tantamount to legal prohibition a la alcohol. Look at the Wikipedia article got prohibitionism [1]: literally every example is of a victimless crime, which murder and human trafficking clearly are not.
- azinman2 9y ago
  For the opposite effect, see legalization of marijuana. It was never fully removed from the (black) market while illegal, but since legalization easy access has meant usage has dramatically increased.
nickthemagicman 9y ago
99.9999999999999 % of ads were for legit prostitution on backpage. There were also many other uses for backpage. You think if a child trafficker posts a single ad on Hacker News...that the entire site should be shut down? No this was heavy handed and a huge step towards censoring the web as we know it.
- scottie_m 9y ago
  In your hypothetical the site admins would have to be aware of the ads, profiting from them, laundering the profits, etc. In that case yes, burn HN down and scatter the ashes. Of course thst isn’t what they’d do, is it? They’d report the ad, delete it, and try to prevent any more such ads from appearing, which is the polar opposite of the actions taken. by Backpage. I’d also like a citation on your numbers, and how you can tell the difference between “legit prostitution” and someone being trafficked or pimped. I’d add that if you actually care about broader issues of censorship, you could not be doing a worse and more counterproductive job of promulgating those beliefs if you tried.
  - nickthemagicman 9y ago
    What about forums sites like reddit/8chan/4chan who don't have enough admins to monitor the thousands of forums that are created on a periodic basis.... What about if the admins wanted to take a week off? There's no doubt this gives the govt massive censorship power and forces a beauracratic burden on sites to hire more admins. You're cool with throwing away our liberties and free internet all over something so statistically miniscule in comparison to the rest of the web.

busterarm 9y ago

And I think you missed the point completely and that's exactly why my comment had to be made. The fact that you use murder here is a perfect example. Prohibition measures are all about restricting the availability of something to curb the desire of it. With the sole exception of the Quaalude, it has never worked. A single government had to convince a global industry to stop its production entirely. There were only like 7 or 9 labs making it though. Oh and with designer drug labs in China, you can actually get ludes made now if you're clever. Human trafficking, coercion and violence is a side-effect of a desire creating a market. Driving that market underground will not eliminate the market, you have to eliminate peoples' desire for that thing. You can't globally stop the production of human beings to curtail this market like they did with Quaaludes... Murder is just about the freest, easiest thing you can do if that's your desire. Murder rates are on the decline because it's just something not that many people want to do anymore.

creddit 9y ago
See Singapore's drug use policies.
- busterarm 9y ago
  Which are the complete opposite of prohibition. Singapore's policies have nothing to do with restricting access. They're torture, life imprisonment or the death penalty. Apples to Oranges.
  - creddit 9y ago
    I'm very confused by how you mean this. I don't see why the type of penalties used means the policies aren't for restricting access under your definitions. It seems abundantly clear to me that they restrict access by making it so immensely costly to traffic drugs (ie provide access to drugs) that few are willing to do it. This is criminal justice 101 stuff.
jakelazaroff 9y ago
The crux of the prohibition argument is this: > Human trafficking, coercion and violence is a side-effect of a desire creating a market. But this will never be a legitimate market. We're talking about money being exchanged for sex with children. That is inherently violent, and has absolutely nothing to do with whatever market may or may not exist. The argument against prohibition is that making the thing illegal is more harmful than regulating it. That's not the case with murder, and it's not the case with human trafficking — any occurrence of it is harmful, regardless of how you regulate it.
- anonbanker 9y ago
  This is the most clever "No True Scottsman" fallacy I've ever seen.
  - jakelazaroff 9y ago
    Are you talking about my excluding murder and human trafficking from the definition of "prohibition"? That's not a "No True Scotsman" fallacy. They're illegal, but it's disingenuous to say laws against them are tantamount to legal prohibition a la alcohol. Look at the Wikipedia article got prohibitionism [1]: literally every example is of a victimless crime, which murder and human trafficking clearly are not.
azinman2 9y ago
For the opposite effect, see legalization of marijuana. It was never fully removed from the (black) market while illegal, but since legalization easy access has meant usage has dramatically increased.

nickthemagicman 9y ago

99.9999999999999 % of ads were for legit prostitution on backpage. There were also many other uses for backpage. You think if a child trafficker posts a single ad on Hacker News...that the entire site should be shut down? No this was heavy handed and a huge step towards censoring the web as we know it.

scottie_m 9y ago
In your hypothetical the site admins would have to be aware of the ads, profiting from them, laundering the profits, etc. In that case yes, burn HN down and scatter the ashes. Of course thst isn’t what they’d do, is it? They’d report the ad, delete it, and try to prevent any more such ads from appearing, which is the polar opposite of the actions taken. by Backpage. I’d also like a citation on your numbers, and how you can tell the difference between “legit prostitution” and someone being trafficked or pimped. I’d add that if you actually care about broader issues of censorship, you could not be doing a worse and more counterproductive job of promulgating those beliefs if you tried.
- nickthemagicman 9y ago
  What about forums sites like reddit/8chan/4chan who don't have enough admins to monitor the thousands of forums that are created on a periodic basis.... What about if the admins wanted to take a week off? There's no doubt this gives the govt massive censorship power and forces a beauracratic burden on sites to hire more admins. You're cool with throwing away our liberties and free internet all over something so statistically miniscule in comparison to the rest of the web.