4 ms·

If - for a moment - we can abstract from the actual conditions of the "lodging" and from the quality of the food (that I understand can be terrible in some US

by jaclaz 9y ago

If - for a moment - we can abstract from the actual conditions of the "lodging" and from the quality of the food (that I understand can be terrible in some US prisons), if we take a single "free" man or woman that is working the same hours (possibly not full-time because there is not such a job offering) at minimum wage BUT has to pay rent, utilities and food, plus medical care, etc., I don't thing that the net (i.e. what remains after having paid all "basic" bills) is very different from a few cents per hour. This hypothetical single low-pay worker has not done anything "bad", and there is no reason why society should "punish" him/her, but I doubt that he/she can save more than 50 US$ per month.

c22 9y ago
I get where you're coming from, but I think it's a little disingenuous to abstract away living conditions. For all those 'basic' bills your minimum wage laborer is likely getting a comfortable bed in their own room with only a few housemates, much better nutrition, a cell phone, private showers, etc. If they wanted to live in a storage unit, shower at the YMCA, and eat for 2 dollars a day they likely could save much more.
- marsrover 9y ago
  > If they wanted to live in a storage unit Which is illegal. And even if it wasn't, it's sad that someone working minimum wage has to live like a prisoner if they want to save anything significant.
  - c22 9y ago
    I totally agree. I'm using a reduction to absurdity to make my point that prisoners experience abysmal living conditions, not arguing that the state of minimum wage workers is just.
watwut 9y ago
Then again, a single phone call in or out of prison is super expensive and so are various fees. And it is not like medical care in prison counted much. And more importantly, it skews incentives and market.
moate 9y ago
The issue becomes that these prisons are exerting downward market force across the industry by using this labor source. They're creating an additional supply of workers which decreases demand and therefor wages. I'm fine with "The Free Market" doing its thing, but not through slavery/unfair practices. To the point you're making of all the other things the prisons provide for the convicts and how that would amount to pay equivalent for free laborers: that's their job. They provide a public good service, feeding/clothing/housing in a humane way people who have violated laws. In exchange they are given money from the government. Their primary business should be that and not disrupting labor.
- evanwise 9y ago
  Oh man, you are so close to realizing what's actually going on. Once you realize that creating a permanent underclass to apply a constant downward pressure on wages is a feature of market economies and not a bug you'll be all the way there.
qntty 9y ago
There were people before the civil war who defended slavery on similar grounds. Free workers may or may not be able to afford the necessities, but slaves are guaranteed everything they need. It's not necessarily an absurd line of thought.
- levmorgan 9y ago
  Sure! It's not absurd at all, as long as you don't care about silly stuff like fundamental human rights.
  - omegaworks 9y ago
    It's exactly this distancing, this "abstracting away" of the intangible, unquantifiable benefits of freedom and agency, that allows people to slip into these ethically barren silos. People are capable of rationalizing extraordinarily inhuman abuses. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/04/12/us/holocaust-education.html#click=https://t.co/cWRE5rcPqM https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/04/12/us/holocaust-education...
    - marsrover 9y ago
      > Forty-one percent of Americans, and 66 percent of millennials, cannot say what Auschwitz was. Now that might be one of the craziest things I've read all month.
      - mathgladiator 9y ago
        That is absolutely insane. How bad is our education system that it is unable to teach and retain such simple facts.
        omegaworks 9y ago
        I learned about it as a kid at my public Chicago school, but it took resources: textbooks, novels, field trips. I even had the privilege to see a play recounting one family's attempts to escape. Public school systems around the country are under attack by the people in positions of authority. Neoliberal Democrats and Evangelical Republicans have allied in a fight to privatize and strip resources away from the public school system. Public school teachers in the most neglected states have finally had enough, and are rising up and striking for better conditions for themselves and their students. It's worth it, to make sure we remember to never repeat the horrors of our past. http://kfor.com/2018/04/03/these-crumbling-textbooks-show-why-oklahoma-teachers-are-walking-out/ http://kfor.com/2018/04/03/these-crumbling-textbooks-show-wh...

by jaclaz 9y ago

c22 9y ago

I get where you're coming from, but I think it's a little disingenuous to abstract away living conditions. For all those 'basic' bills your minimum wage laborer is likely getting a comfortable bed in their own room with only a few housemates, much better nutrition, a cell phone, private showers, etc. If they wanted to live in a storage unit, shower at the YMCA, and eat for 2 dollars a day they likely could save much more.

marsrover 9y ago
> If they wanted to live in a storage unit Which is illegal. And even if it wasn't, it's sad that someone working minimum wage has to live like a prisoner if they want to save anything significant.
- c22 9y ago
  I totally agree. I'm using a reduction to absurdity to make my point that prisoners experience abysmal living conditions, not arguing that the state of minimum wage workers is just.

watwut 9y ago

Then again, a single phone call in or out of prison is super expensive and so are various fees. And it is not like medical care in prison counted much. And more importantly, it skews incentives and market.

moate 9y ago

The issue becomes that these prisons are exerting downward market force across the industry by using this labor source. They're creating an additional supply of workers which decreases demand and therefor wages. I'm fine with "The Free Market" doing its thing, but not through slavery/unfair practices. To the point you're making of all the other things the prisons provide for the convicts and how that would amount to pay equivalent for free laborers: that's their job. They provide a public good service, feeding/clothing/housing in a humane way people who have violated laws. In exchange they are given money from the government. Their primary business should be that and not disrupting labor.

evanwise 9y ago
Oh man, you are so close to realizing what's actually going on. Once you realize that creating a permanent underclass to apply a constant downward pressure on wages is a feature of market economies and not a bug you'll be all the way there.

qntty 9y ago

There were people before the civil war who defended slavery on similar grounds. Free workers may or may not be able to afford the necessities, but slaves are guaranteed everything they need. It's not necessarily an absurd line of thought.

levmorgan 9y ago
Sure! It's not absurd at all, as long as you don't care about silly stuff like fundamental human rights.
- omegaworks 9y ago
  It's exactly this distancing, this "abstracting away" of the intangible, unquantifiable benefits of freedom and agency, that allows people to slip into these ethically barren silos. People are capable of rationalizing extraordinarily inhuman abuses. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/04/12/us/holocaust-education.html#click=https://t.co/cWRE5rcPqM https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/04/12/us/holocaust-education...
  - marsrover 9y ago
    > Forty-one percent of Americans, and 66 percent of millennials, cannot say what Auschwitz was. Now that might be one of the craziest things I've read all month.
    - mathgladiator 9y ago
      That is absolutely insane. How bad is our education system that it is unable to teach and retain such simple facts.
      - omegaworks 9y ago
        I learned about it as a kid at my public Chicago school, but it took resources: textbooks, novels, field trips. I even had the privilege to see a play recounting one family's attempts to escape. Public school systems around the country are under attack by the people in positions of authority. Neoliberal Democrats and Evangelical Republicans have allied in a fight to privatize and strip resources away from the public school system. Public school teachers in the most neglected states have finally had enough, and are rising up and striking for better conditions for themselves and their students. It's worth it, to make sure we remember to never repeat the horrors of our past. http://kfor.com/2018/04/03/these-crumbling-textbooks-show-why-oklahoma-teachers-are-walking-out/ http://kfor.com/2018/04/03/these-crumbling-textbooks-show-wh...