4 ms·

Man, your comment comes across as pretty classist. Would you extend the same argument against the use of italics? If not, why? Can you statistically demonstrate

Man, your comment comes across as pretty classist. Would you extend the same argument against the use of italics? If not, why? Can you statistically demonstrate a disparity between information density of comments using all caps versus using italics?

dang 9y ago
If that's classist then the guidelines as a whole must be classist.
- evanlivingston 9y ago
  Yes, that's a real possibility.
  - matte_black 9y ago
    Look around at other comments, no one is using all caps to get a point across. It’s uncouth to use caps here.
    - evanlivingston 9y ago
      Right, that's what I'm pushing back against. I don't feel that the rules governing the normative HN discourse should be the rules by which we determine the informational content of a comment. Not following the manners of a certain group (acting uncouth) has no bearing on the truthiness of a statement. When the content of a person's comment is evaluated by their adherence to discursive standards alone then groups of people with alternative discursive standards, and by extension their thoughts, are more readily dismissed. Is that what we want to do here?
      - dang 9y ago
        Certainly statements made with "alternative discursive standards" can be just as true. Convert any English sentence to uppercase and it's as true as it was. But from my point of view the issue is the systemic effects that "discursive standards" have on a community as a whole. The HN guidelines mention a bunch of things that we've found, over the years, to be important for that reason. Hacker News is one kind of community among many. Think of it as a place where a certain game is played, with its rule set. If that's classist, then chess is classist because it doesn't allow "alternative gameplay standards" like moving your knight diagonally. To me the important thing is that everybody is welcome who wishes to participate and play by the rules. Playing by the rules isn't always easy (including for me—I often have to edit my comments to make them more civil), but all it takes is a wish to do it, and that's as inclusive as HN can get while still having its particular character. It's fine not to like that character, but in that case the thing to do is find a community you like better, or create one. There's room for many communities and should be more.
- dredmorbius 9y ago
  Not all class is bad. I generally appreciate the caps restriction, but in this instance side strongly withgumby,,abovee. Of course, now we're discussing site regs rather than the evils and contagion of prison labour and for-profit prisons, which is its own meta-level of distraction and conversational degredation.
ben509 9y ago
_Man, your comment comes across as pretty classist._ Yes, when someone is trying to set a "class" of standards, they are being classist. In this case, it's a standard that requires not holding down the shift key, so it's hardly exclusive.
- evanlivingston 9y ago
  Sure, but the underlying question is why are italics okay and not capitals. Arn't they both means to the same end, communication of emphasis? I understand no one want's to be yelled at, and it's a turn off in conversation, but arn't these just different methods of communicating the same thing? See my comment below for more.
  - ben509 9y ago
    Right, your objection is that we're excluding people, and you ask: > Is that what we want to do here? Yes. Just the fact that articles are oriented on tech excludes a whole host of people. And if you include too many people, that in itself will start to exclude people; in addition, the discussion will fall apart. You're looking at it as a moral issue, and you're not wrong to, it's just that the morality is very much overshadowed by the practical mechanics of running a discussion forum. I recommend "Choosing in Groups" by Michael Munger for some very insightful thoughts on how this all works.
    - evanlivingston 9y ago
      Thanks for the thoughtful and honest response. I'll check the book out.
  - ben509 9y ago
    Also, I do find that I post better stuff on HN than on other forums because I'm aware that if I'm ranty it will get downvoted. Sometimes insisting on standards can motivate people to elevate themselves.
collyw 9y ago
They usually do.

dang 9y ago

If that's classist then the guidelines as a whole must be classist.

evanlivingston 9y ago
Yes, that's a real possibility.
- matte_black 9y ago
  Look around at other comments, no one is using all caps to get a point across. It’s uncouth to use caps here.
  - evanlivingston 9y ago
    Right, that's what I'm pushing back against. I don't feel that the rules governing the normative HN discourse should be the rules by which we determine the informational content of a comment. Not following the manners of a certain group (acting uncouth) has no bearing on the truthiness of a statement. When the content of a person's comment is evaluated by their adherence to discursive standards alone then groups of people with alternative discursive standards, and by extension their thoughts, are more readily dismissed. Is that what we want to do here?
    - dang 9y ago
      Certainly statements made with "alternative discursive standards" can be just as true. Convert any English sentence to uppercase and it's as true as it was. But from my point of view the issue is the systemic effects that "discursive standards" have on a community as a whole. The HN guidelines mention a bunch of things that we've found, over the years, to be important for that reason. Hacker News is one kind of community among many. Think of it as a place where a certain game is played, with its rule set. If that's classist, then chess is classist because it doesn't allow "alternative gameplay standards" like moving your knight diagonally. To me the important thing is that everybody is welcome who wishes to participate and play by the rules. Playing by the rules isn't always easy (including for me—I often have to edit my comments to make them more civil), but all it takes is a wish to do it, and that's as inclusive as HN can get while still having its particular character. It's fine not to like that character, but in that case the thing to do is find a community you like better, or create one. There's room for many communities and should be more.
dredmorbius 9y ago
Not all class is bad. I generally appreciate the caps restriction, but in this instance side strongly withgumby,,abovee. Of course, now we're discussing site regs rather than the evils and contagion of prison labour and for-profit prisons, which is its own meta-level of distraction and conversational degredation.

ben509 9y ago

_Man, your comment comes across as pretty classist._ Yes, when someone is trying to set a "class" of standards, they are being classist. In this case, it's a standard that requires not holding down the shift key, so it's hardly exclusive.

evanlivingston 9y ago
Sure, but the underlying question is why are italics okay and not capitals. Arn't they both means to the same end, communication of emphasis? I understand no one want's to be yelled at, and it's a turn off in conversation, but arn't these just different methods of communicating the same thing? See my comment below for more.
- ben509 9y ago
  Right, your objection is that we're excluding people, and you ask: > Is that what we want to do here? Yes. Just the fact that articles are oriented on tech excludes a whole host of people. And if you include too many people, that in itself will start to exclude people; in addition, the discussion will fall apart. You're looking at it as a moral issue, and you're not wrong to, it's just that the morality is very much overshadowed by the practical mechanics of running a discussion forum. I recommend "Choosing in Groups" by Michael Munger for some very insightful thoughts on how this all works.
  - evanlivingston 9y ago
    Thanks for the thoughtful and honest response. I'll check the book out.
- ben509 9y ago
  Also, I do find that I post better stuff on HN than on other forums because I'm aware that if I'm ranty it will get downvoted. Sometimes insisting on standards can motivate people to elevate themselves.

collyw 9y ago

They usually do.