8 ms·

This is particularly heinous for those of us that do music production. A lot of plugins are orphaned at some point (meaning the developers no longer update the

by wheels 9y ago

This is particularly heinous for those of us that do music production. A lot of plugins are orphaned at some point (meaning the developers no longer update them), and if you created a piece of music with those plugins (instruments, effects), if you can't load those plugins, you can't open old files. I often open up sketches from several years prior and consider working more on them. I keep a full 32-bit stack of music stuff left installed exactly for that reason. Usually, if I open them up, then I'll go ahead and move them over to 64-bit semi-equivalents, but that's difficult if you can't even hear what you were doing with the old one.

rz2k 9y ago
While you will possibly have to upgrade your OS for some software sooner rather than later, MacOS High Sierra should continue to get security updates for a while, and you will be able to run it in a virtual machine like Virtualbox or Veertu, or something else built on Apple's native hypervisor for a very long time.
- wheels 9y ago
  Yes, I've considered such. Unfortunately real-time audio processing is one of those areas where virtual machines are still very finicky.
beedogs 9y ago
Yep. I'm not excited about the prospect of moving back to the PC for making music, but it looks like that's what Apple want me to do.
- nicky0 9y ago
  Is the exact same software/plugins that will open your current files available on Windows?
  - beedogs 9y ago
    Pretty much, yes.
- promeus 9y ago
  This, or go with idea that for some years ahead you can work with El Capitan on a old hardware. Windows for me is dead end also, until someone in pro industry realizes that its time to move to Linux. Apple is mobile and entertainment company now. Microsoft wants AI/Cloud. The logical answer is Linux.
  - SyneRyder 9y ago
    >until someone in pro industry realizes that its time to move to Linux Some already are. When I bought my copy of Pianoteq 6 [1], I was surprised to see they also offer a Linux version (and even a Raspberry Pi version). The DAW I use called Renoise [2] has a Linux version, and the JUCE [3] development framework common to many VST plugins also has Linux support. Listening to podcasts like Sonic Talk [4], I'm mostly hearing about studios switching from Mac back to Windows, but they have been talking a lot more about Linux too. [1] https://www.pianoteq.com/ https://www.pianoteq.com/ [2] https://www.renoise.com https://www.renoise.com [3] https://juce.com/ https://juce.com/ [4] https://sonicstate.com/sonictalk https://sonicstate.com/sonictalk
    - tomduncalf 9y ago
      Other notable big(ish) name DAWs with Linux versions include Bitwig (quite similar to Ableton Live) and Tracktion
- chipotle_coyote 9y ago
  Apple started making this transition in OS X 10.5, which came out in late 2007. The 32-bit-only Carbon APIs have been deprecated since 10.8 (2012). It's not like this snuck up on developers; the writing was on the wall by the end of the last decade. I'm not unsympathetic -- I have some 32-bit programs lurking around, including Dramatica Story Expert, an expensive one that's still theoretically being updated. But if that program stops working, I'm inclined to blame the developers, not Apple. Apple isn't forcing them to put out an app that feels like something from 20 years ago, or to consistently wait until beyond the last minute to update for system transitions that they've had literally years of warning about. (In Dramatica's case, they didn't even transition to Carbon until the classic environment went away, and didn't transition to Intel code instead of PowerPC code until Rosetta went away.)
- kilon 9y ago
  Nope, I am afraid that won't protect you from the curse of abandonware. Only an emulator can. Your problem is not related to what type of hardware, software, OS you use but how old they are. Nothing is supported forever. With emulators we keep using technology that is more than 30 years old. This is a walk in the park.
veridies 9y ago
I run into this problem all the time. I’ve gotten into the habit of bouncing all the individual tracks on a project I put down for a while; it’s not perfect, but at least I have something left if a plug-in breaks later.
- brookside 9y ago
  Yep this is the the best real solution I think. A recording is a snapshot in time and it makes sense to print track/s to stems after plugins so can be remixed later if so desired.
caf 9y ago
For plugins it might well be possible to create a 64 bit shim plugin that fires up the old 32 bit plugin in a virtualised 32 bit environment, with thunks to translate backwards and forwards.
kilon 9y ago
As an ambient composer, myself I understand your pain but that is the unavoidable fate of all abandoware technologies. Abandonware technologies however can be used through the use of emulators. If I can use my first computer that my father bought in 1988 (Amstrad CPC 6128) with its magnificent 4mhz CPU and mindblowing 128kb memory from any OS (including iOS and Android) via emulators. I am sure using 32 bit VSTs and AUs should be a walk in the park with Virtualbox. All you will have to do is bounce those plugins to audio and move the audio to your 64bit OS or even (probably its possible) make the two OS talk to each other so you can use both 32 and 64 bit versions at the same time.
xaldir 9y ago
A friend of mine who does music production too, keeps a mac pro (2012) on snow leopard for backward compatibility purposes (compatibility with old specialized hardware, pci express cards and software).
Shinchy 9y ago
I keep two versions of my DAW (Ableton) installed 32bit and 64bit. It's not just so I can open my older files but also because I find some of the older VSTs to simply sound better.
chmaynard 9y ago
> A lot of plugins are orphaned at some point ... if you can't load those plugins, you can't open old files. In other words, your music production business depends on old, unsupported, proprietary software. You may actually have to pony up and hire someone to fix your problem or help you switch to another platform. Welcome to the real world.
babypuncher 9y ago
I've been saying this for years, but Windows is genuinely a better platform than OS X for media production because Microsoft actually gives a crap about supporting legacy software.

by wheels 9y ago

rz2k 9y ago

While you will possibly have to upgrade your OS for some software sooner rather than later, MacOS High Sierra should continue to get security updates for a while, and you will be able to run it in a virtual machine like Virtualbox or Veertu, or something else built on Apple's native hypervisor for a very long time.

wheels 9y ago
Yes, I've considered such. Unfortunately real-time audio processing is one of those areas where virtual machines are still very finicky.

beedogs 9y ago

Yep. I'm not excited about the prospect of moving back to the PC for making music, but it looks like that's what Apple want me to do.

nicky0 9y ago
Is the exact same software/plugins that will open your current files available on Windows?
- beedogs 9y ago
  Pretty much, yes.
promeus 9y ago
This, or go with idea that for some years ahead you can work with El Capitan on a old hardware. Windows for me is dead end also, until someone in pro industry realizes that its time to move to Linux. Apple is mobile and entertainment company now. Microsoft wants AI/Cloud. The logical answer is Linux.
- SyneRyder 9y ago
  >until someone in pro industry realizes that its time to move to Linux Some already are. When I bought my copy of Pianoteq 6 [1], I was surprised to see they also offer a Linux version (and even a Raspberry Pi version). The DAW I use called Renoise [2] has a Linux version, and the JUCE [3] development framework common to many VST plugins also has Linux support. Listening to podcasts like Sonic Talk [4], I'm mostly hearing about studios switching from Mac back to Windows, but they have been talking a lot more about Linux too. [1] https://www.pianoteq.com/ https://www.pianoteq.com/ [2] https://www.renoise.com https://www.renoise.com [3] https://juce.com/ https://juce.com/ [4] https://sonicstate.com/sonictalk https://sonicstate.com/sonictalk
  - tomduncalf 9y ago
    Other notable big(ish) name DAWs with Linux versions include Bitwig (quite similar to Ableton Live) and Tracktion
chipotle_coyote 9y ago
Apple started making this transition in OS X 10.5, which came out in late 2007. The 32-bit-only Carbon APIs have been deprecated since 10.8 (2012). It's not like this snuck up on developers; the writing was on the wall by the end of the last decade. I'm not unsympathetic -- I have some 32-bit programs lurking around, including Dramatica Story Expert, an expensive one that's still theoretically being updated. But if that program stops working, I'm inclined to blame the developers, not Apple. Apple isn't forcing them to put out an app that feels like something from 20 years ago, or to consistently wait until beyond the last minute to update for system transitions that they've had literally years of warning about. (In Dramatica's case, they didn't even transition to Carbon until the classic environment went away, and didn't transition to Intel code instead of PowerPC code until Rosetta went away.)
kilon 9y ago
Nope, I am afraid that won't protect you from the curse of abandonware. Only an emulator can. Your problem is not related to what type of hardware, software, OS you use but how old they are. Nothing is supported forever. With emulators we keep using technology that is more than 30 years old. This is a walk in the park.

veridies 9y ago

I run into this problem all the time. I’ve gotten into the habit of bouncing all the individual tracks on a project I put down for a while; it’s not perfect, but at least I have something left if a plug-in breaks later.

brookside 9y ago
Yep this is the the best real solution I think. A recording is a snapshot in time and it makes sense to print track/s to stems after plugins so can be remixed later if so desired.

caf 9y ago

For plugins it might well be possible to create a 64 bit shim plugin that fires up the old 32 bit plugin in a virtualised 32 bit environment, with thunks to translate backwards and forwards.

kilon 9y ago

As an ambient composer, myself I understand your pain but that is the unavoidable fate of all abandoware technologies. Abandonware technologies however can be used through the use of emulators. If I can use my first computer that my father bought in 1988 (Amstrad CPC 6128) with its magnificent 4mhz CPU and mindblowing 128kb memory from any OS (including iOS and Android) via emulators. I am sure using 32 bit VSTs and AUs should be a walk in the park with Virtualbox. All you will have to do is bounce those plugins to audio and move the audio to your 64bit OS or even (probably its possible) make the two OS talk to each other so you can use both 32 and 64 bit versions at the same time.

xaldir 9y ago

A friend of mine who does music production too, keeps a mac pro (2012) on snow leopard for backward compatibility purposes (compatibility with old specialized hardware, pci express cards and software).

Shinchy 9y ago

I keep two versions of my DAW (Ableton) installed 32bit and 64bit. It's not just so I can open my older files but also because I find some of the older VSTs to simply sound better.

chmaynard 9y ago

> A lot of plugins are orphaned at some point ... if you can't load those plugins, you can't open old files. In other words, your music production business depends on old, unsupported, proprietary software. You may actually have to pony up and hire someone to fix your problem or help you switch to another platform. Welcome to the real world.

babypuncher 9y ago

I've been saying this for years, but Windows is genuinely a better platform than OS X for media production because Microsoft actually gives a crap about supporting legacy software.