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>But today we can't even do a basic 'dont run into shit' on a perfectly clear day. so,uh, the emergency braking systems on other cars...so called 'AEB' systems

by lsc 9y ago

>But today we can't even do a basic 'dont run into shit' on a perfectly clear day. so,uh, the emergency braking systems on other cars...so called 'AEB' systems, or what Honda calls Collision Mitigation Braking System... would that have caught this? I would expect this sort of thing "big object in road" to trigger the AEB system... even if it didn't stop me, I'd expect it to trigger before the collision and slow me down. Are my expectations off? or is it just that the tesla system, 'passive sensors only, with machine classification' isn't as good? I guess people rely on the tesla system more than the honda system, due to advertising, so it could be that both systems make errors at similar rates, it's just that advertising means that the tesla system is triggered more often.

axaxs 9y ago
Maybe, who knows. The difference is that Honda and others aren't advertising an auto driving but a warning system. If i'm designing such a system, the obvious answer is 'if I don't know my exact next x feet, stop the car.' And I mean exact. A confused autodrive system should stop in the highway, not smash a barrier.
- haeffin 9y ago
  A car that stops for no reason is a safety risk for the cars that follow it, so that's not a good option either.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - axaxs 9y ago
    I did think about that. Though, as a driver, you're supposed to leave enough room for this to happen, I know that's not reality so point taken. With early enough 'im confused', perhaps it can just blare an alarm and disable auto drive. Still, given the option between the two, I'd choose come to a stop vs any alternative. It's what a human would do if they lost all visibility.
    - lsc 9y ago
      > I'd choose come to a stop vs any alternative. It's what a human would do if they lost all visibility. As a human who has driven in central valley fog? it's not what most humans do. I personally pull over if I can't see two seconds ahead while going above 45, because most people are still going 65-75mph even when you cant see the lines on the road 20 yards in front of you. I'm also uncomfortable with that, afraid someone will plow into me. But that's better than plowing into someone else, I think (though again, I think I'm not in the majority in that assessment.) One thing I often do is wait for a tractor trailer to pass me... then I follow them just close enough to keep their taillights in view, on the theory that I can probably stop faster than they can, and they are lit up pretty well, so I can see them further than I can see other cars.
      - axaxs 9y ago
        I'd consider that low visibility, not 0. But still a good use case. I'm in an area where the weather this year has been unreal. Twice I left my house, to have every window in my car fog to 0 visibility. You feel lost, you panic, you slam the brakes. Only then do you roll the windows down and slowly make your way to the side to defrost. Also note, both times I was in a hurry and it was completely my fault. Still, it was the first time I realized what 0 visibility was.
javagram 9y ago
Honda's documentation for the Civic doesn't indicate it would stop in this case. "Collision Mitigation Braking System™ (CMBS™) Can assist you when there is a possibility of your vehicle colliding with a vehicle or a pedestrian detected in front of yours." I think like Tesla, it would run right into it - the systems have been tuned to reduce false positives and so only detect and stop on objects matching vehicles or pedestrians, not arbitrary objects like a road barrier. The difference being, the Civic system doesn't give people nearly the same sense of false assurance that the Tesla one does...
- petre 9y ago
  The way traditional automakers are doing it is the proper way to do it - cautiously and responsibly. Incrementally implementing driver assistive technology instead of shipping an autopilot which doesn't deliver and crashes the car into obstacles. Traditional automakers are used to screw ups that lead to recalls and lawsuits so they're quite cautious. The Hyundai Ionic assistive tech slows down the car to a stop if you take your hands off the wheel.
ummonk 9y ago
The AEB wouldn't trigger on something like this. And it shouldn't, since an actual driver would be turning to follow the road, so there is no reason to do any emergency braking (or even to warn them).
- lsc 9y ago
  but a big part of AEB is to slow the car before a collision, thus reducing the speed/severity of the resulting crash. There certainly should be a point at which it becomes clear that the car is going to hit the thing, and I'd expect the AEB to reduce speed at that point, even if that is too late to completely stop the car.
rebuilder 9y ago
I can't speak to Honda's system, but on our Opel Ampera (Chevy Volt essentially), my wife and I have found out the hard way that the collision avoidance system is best turned off. Both of us have had it trigger with no vehicle in front of the car, turning off cruise control and resulting, due to driving in the more aggressive regen braking mode, in a very rapid and rather alarming deceleration for no apparent reason. Our experience has been that it seems to make driving less safe.

by lsc 9y ago

axaxs 9y ago

Maybe, who knows. The difference is that Honda and others aren't advertising an auto driving but a warning system. If i'm designing such a system, the obvious answer is 'if I don't know my exact next x feet, stop the car.' And I mean exact. A confused autodrive system should stop in the highway, not smash a barrier.

haeffin 9y ago
A car that stops for no reason is a safety risk for the cars that follow it, so that's not a good option either.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- axaxs 9y ago
  I did think about that. Though, as a driver, you're supposed to leave enough room for this to happen, I know that's not reality so point taken. With early enough 'im confused', perhaps it can just blare an alarm and disable auto drive. Still, given the option between the two, I'd choose come to a stop vs any alternative. It's what a human would do if they lost all visibility.
  - lsc 9y ago
    > I'd choose come to a stop vs any alternative. It's what a human would do if they lost all visibility. As a human who has driven in central valley fog? it's not what most humans do. I personally pull over if I can't see two seconds ahead while going above 45, because most people are still going 65-75mph even when you cant see the lines on the road 20 yards in front of you. I'm also uncomfortable with that, afraid someone will plow into me. But that's better than plowing into someone else, I think (though again, I think I'm not in the majority in that assessment.) One thing I often do is wait for a tractor trailer to pass me... then I follow them just close enough to keep their taillights in view, on the theory that I can probably stop faster than they can, and they are lit up pretty well, so I can see them further than I can see other cars.
    - axaxs 9y ago
      I'd consider that low visibility, not 0. But still a good use case. I'm in an area where the weather this year has been unreal. Twice I left my house, to have every window in my car fog to 0 visibility. You feel lost, you panic, you slam the brakes. Only then do you roll the windows down and slowly make your way to the side to defrost. Also note, both times I was in a hurry and it was completely my fault. Still, it was the first time I realized what 0 visibility was.

javagram 9y ago

Honda's documentation for the Civic doesn't indicate it would stop in this case. "Collision Mitigation Braking System™ (CMBS™) Can assist you when there is a possibility of your vehicle colliding with a vehicle or a pedestrian detected in front of yours." I think like Tesla, it would run right into it - the systems have been tuned to reduce false positives and so only detect and stop on objects matching vehicles or pedestrians, not arbitrary objects like a road barrier. The difference being, the Civic system doesn't give people nearly the same sense of false assurance that the Tesla one does...

petre 9y ago
The way traditional automakers are doing it is the proper way to do it - cautiously and responsibly. Incrementally implementing driver assistive technology instead of shipping an autopilot which doesn't deliver and crashes the car into obstacles. Traditional automakers are used to screw ups that lead to recalls and lawsuits so they're quite cautious. The Hyundai Ionic assistive tech slows down the car to a stop if you take your hands off the wheel.

ummonk 9y ago

The AEB wouldn't trigger on something like this. And it shouldn't, since an actual driver would be turning to follow the road, so there is no reason to do any emergency braking (or even to warn them).

lsc 9y ago
but a big part of AEB is to slow the car before a collision, thus reducing the speed/severity of the resulting crash. There certainly should be a point at which it becomes clear that the car is going to hit the thing, and I'd expect the AEB to reduce speed at that point, even if that is too late to completely stop the car.

rebuilder 9y ago

I can't speak to Honda's system, but on our Opel Ampera (Chevy Volt essentially), my wife and I have found out the hard way that the collision avoidance system is best turned off. Both of us have had it trigger with no vehicle in front of the car, turning off cruise control and resulting, due to driving in the more aggressive regen braking mode, in a very rapid and rather alarming deceleration for no apparent reason. Our experience has been that it seems to make driving less safe.