4 ms·

He addresses the politeness issue in the follow up by saying, quite rightly: To the authoritarian mind, there are only two responses to a demand: submission or

by mjgoins 16y ago

He addresses the politeness issue in the follow up by saying, quite rightly: To the authoritarian mind, there are only two responses to a demand: submission or defiance, and anything less than total submission is defiance.

bonaldi 16y ago
Nonetheless, to the human mind, there are plenty of shades of grey. If you're trying to convince (both them and the blog-reading public), you'd do well not to act as if everything's black and white. see also: Stallman.
- thaumaturgy 16y ago
  One of my favorite quotes: "The reasonable man adapts himself to the conditions that surround him... The unreasonable man adapts surrounding conditions to himself... All progress depends on the unreasonable man." (George Bernard Shaw) Stallman's complete and total unwillingness to bend at all occasionally grates on my nerves. I am also grateful for it.
acabal 16y ago
I guess politeness can be one of those grey area kinds of things, but when somebody replies "none of your business" to a question of mine, I usually find it a little rude. Alternatively he could have explained his reasoning for remaining silent instead of just doing so; that might have educated (sadly) some of the officers as to why he was acting that way while appearing polite and retaining his rights.
patio11 16y ago
The pragmatic civil libertarian might choose to open with something like "Respectfully, I don't believe I have to answer that one. We can discuss it with my attorney present if you disagree."
- SoftwareMaven 16y ago
  This has additional value in that the person you are speaking to is taught something and doesn't leave the encounter just thinking you are an ass.
tptacek 16y ago
You realize that just because he says that doesn't mean it's actually true, right? In fact, his argument for being brusque doesn't square with his argument for the inalienability of his rights to silent re-entry. If he's right about the latter, he has no reason to "assert the fact that he won't be pushed around"; he won't be pushed around either way. I'm left with the conclusion that I'm reading about a major-league douchebag... one who I'm glad is defining the frontiers of our rights as citizens, but a douchebag nonetheless.
- asmithmd1 16y ago
  Here is well researched 24 page report on what courts have found to be what your rights are at a border crossing http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/homesec/RL31826.pdf http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/homesec/RL31826.pdf Some surprises to me are that you can be detained for 4 to 6 hours as part of routine screening and body cavity searched without a warrant if you simply match a profile.
  - kreneskyp 16y ago
    It is well researched by I find the logic justifying warrant-less search specious: "It has long been established that border crossers’ reasonable expectation of privacy is lower at the border because they generally expect border guards to search persons and property for contraband. Because this is common knowledge, border crossers are put on notice when approaching a border that a search may be imminent, and thus their privacy is “less invaded by [border] searches” when they occur." More generally that means: We blatantly violate so many people's rights that they're not really being violated.
    - tptacek 16y ago
      I don't love the logic at play here either but feel compelled to note that, like it or not, it is the logic that every court in the land will use. Your rights at our country's borders are limited. The Supreme Court has held these limitations to be constitutional. Disagree or not, your only recourse may involve a constitutional amendment.
kelnos 16y ago
That's an opinion, not demonstrated fact, and one I don't agree with. Customs officials may be in some position of authority, but they are still people. People generally prefer to be treated with respect, politeness, and civility. Your every interaction with someone in authority is not an alpha-male/top-dog struggle for dominance. Regardless of that, there's a difference between polite defiance and rude defiance, often a big one. Odds are you'll get a better response from the former, one that allows you to exercise your rights without coming off as a dick. At the very least it's easier to earn sympathy if you're still mistreated.

by mjgoins 16y ago

bonaldi 16y ago

Nonetheless, to the human mind, there are plenty of shades of grey. If you're trying to convince (both them and the blog-reading public), you'd do well not to act as if everything's black and white. see also: Stallman.

thaumaturgy 16y ago
One of my favorite quotes: "The reasonable man adapts himself to the conditions that surround him... The unreasonable man adapts surrounding conditions to himself... All progress depends on the unreasonable man." (George Bernard Shaw) Stallman's complete and total unwillingness to bend at all occasionally grates on my nerves. I am also grateful for it.

acabal 16y ago

I guess politeness can be one of those grey area kinds of things, but when somebody replies "none of your business" to a question of mine, I usually find it a little rude. Alternatively he could have explained his reasoning for remaining silent instead of just doing so; that might have educated (sadly) some of the officers as to why he was acting that way while appearing polite and retaining his rights.

patio11 16y ago

The pragmatic civil libertarian might choose to open with something like "Respectfully, I don't believe I have to answer that one. We can discuss it with my attorney present if you disagree."

SoftwareMaven 16y ago
This has additional value in that the person you are speaking to is taught something and doesn't leave the encounter just thinking you are an ass.

tptacek 16y ago

You realize that just because he says that doesn't mean it's actually true, right? In fact, his argument for being brusque doesn't square with his argument for the inalienability of his rights to silent re-entry. If he's right about the latter, he has no reason to "assert the fact that he won't be pushed around"; he won't be pushed around either way. I'm left with the conclusion that I'm reading about a major-league douchebag... one who I'm glad is defining the frontiers of our rights as citizens, but a douchebag nonetheless.

asmithmd1 16y ago
Here is well researched 24 page report on what courts have found to be what your rights are at a border crossing http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/homesec/RL31826.pdf http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/homesec/RL31826.pdf Some surprises to me are that you can be detained for 4 to 6 hours as part of routine screening and body cavity searched without a warrant if you simply match a profile.
- kreneskyp 16y ago
  It is well researched by I find the logic justifying warrant-less search specious: "It has long been established that border crossers’ reasonable expectation of privacy is lower at the border because they generally expect border guards to search persons and property for contraband. Because this is common knowledge, border crossers are put on notice when approaching a border that a search may be imminent, and thus their privacy is “less invaded by [border] searches” when they occur." More generally that means: We blatantly violate so many people's rights that they're not really being violated.
  - tptacek 16y ago
    I don't love the logic at play here either but feel compelled to note that, like it or not, it is the logic that every court in the land will use. Your rights at our country's borders are limited. The Supreme Court has held these limitations to be constitutional. Disagree or not, your only recourse may involve a constitutional amendment.

kelnos 16y ago

That's an opinion, not demonstrated fact, and one I don't agree with. Customs officials may be in some position of authority, but they are still people. People generally prefer to be treated with respect, politeness, and civility. Your every interaction with someone in authority is not an alpha-male/top-dog struggle for dominance. Regardless of that, there's a difference between polite defiance and rude defiance, often a big one. Odds are you'll get a better response from the former, one that allows you to exercise your rights without coming off as a dick. At the very least it's easier to earn sympathy if you're still mistreated.