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Japan team maps trove of rare earth elements

67 points by ph0rque 9y ago

JoeAltmaier 9y ago
Sounds like political noise. Mining is always, always about how efficiently (read: cheaply) the desired thing can be separated from the chaff. That determines entirely whether its a doable thing. And they make only handwavy claims about that.
lainga 9y ago
Does this mean a bijection between the natural numbers and the rare-earth elements? :) But really, is this one of the reasons the Senkaku/Diaoyu fight is so heated? Forget national pride or fishing rights, China doesn't want to see its rare-earth monopoly undermined by deposits in Japanese waters (hypothetically). EDIT: Never mind, Minamitori is near Wake Island in the mid-Pacific.
- lisper 9y ago
  Why "never mind"? Wake Island is disputed territory (per Wikipedia "The island is an unorganized, unincorporated territory of the United States that is also claimed by the Republic of the Marshall Islands"). This could get interesting if China suddenly makes friends with the RMI.
  - lainga 9y ago
    That is an interesting point, but I think the PLAN can bring force to the East China Sea disputes much easier than something between Guam and Wake. I don't think the US would allow them to even build up forces in the Marshalls without hostilities.
    - lisper 9y ago
      They wouldn't do it by building up forces, they would do it by building an airport. https://nextcity.org/features/view/the-worlds-emptiest-airport-is-a-red-flag https://nextcity.org/features/view/the-worlds-emptiest-airpo...
      - lainga 9y ago
        I can see where you are going, but there is a big difference between building dual-use infrastructure and actually moving forces there. If the Liaoning and its screens decide to weigh anchor and steam halfway toward Hawaii, the entire world and the USN will probably wake up and say "oh shit, what are you doing?"
        SaintGhurka 9y ago
        I think what the parent was pointing out was the infrastructure China built in Sri Lanka eventually led to SL deeding over some territory to China to cover the debt. I guess the implication is that they'll get Marshall Islands indebted to them, force them to sign over their claim to Wake Island to settle the debt and then China would somehow militarily press that claim.
        lisper 9y ago
        Or something like that. The Chinese are currently playing a much longer game than any other nation on earth.
        lisper 9y ago
        "We are defending the Republic of the Marshall Islands at the behest of the government thereof."
comfrey 9y ago
My new favorite word combo “Semi-infinite”
- xnaas 9y ago
  Here I am, sitting at work, trying to come up with silly ways to pronounce a combination of "semi" and "infinite." Seminfinite -- sim-infinite -- has a nice ring to it when said quickly.
- ph0rque 9y ago
  ℵ_-0.5 :)
mchannon 9y ago
Not all rare earths are created equal, and the more common ones are so commonplace and cheap that it'd be ludicrous to mine them undersea (even undersea gold mining has yet to have an impact on the world market for gold). Further, it's an open secret in the mining industry that assays and estimates of deposits are frequently false, often by design. If you thought there was a lot of stupid money in ICO's and California startups, take a look at early stage mining concerns. China's dominant position in rare earth mining is probably better described as a "race to the bottom" rather than a monopoly position. Mountain Pass (now Chinese-owned, by the way) isn't going anywhere, and it, or a comparably rich deposit on land somewhere else, will get started up as soon as it makes economic sense. Speaking of somewhere else, if you've got money to sink into "heavy" REE mining concerns (with proven and verifiable reserves in the US) drop me a line.
noetic_techy 9y ago
They aren't rare, they are just really expensive to mine and process in the western world. The chemicals involved are nasty and radioactive waste is one of the byproducts. China has lax enough environmental laws and is willing to absorb the blow. Wonder if enough R&D could solve the processing problems.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- SquirrelOnFire 9y ago
  My understanding is that the main radioactive waste from rare earth mining is Thorium - a pretty easy to handle material (the US just buries it in landfills, which is enough to contain it) with the potential to be a valuable resource in itself once LFTRs get off the ground again, which China and India are working pretty hard on.
  - mchannon 9y ago
    The main radioactive waste from rare earth mining is indeed Thorium. It is not a pretty easy to handle material. Check out https://projects.newyorker.com/story/radioactive-nyc/ https://projects.newyorker.com/story/radioactive-nyc/ to learn how Thorium from rare earth refining a century ago made NYC into a radioactive waste site. Thorium is not responsibly managed in landfills. LFTR's have never "gotten off the ground". Even if they achieved some extraordinary combination of breakthroughs over the next 10 years, we wouldn't come close to using all the available Thorium that exists near the REE we have. As a fertile (but not fissile) element, Thorium demand will be inextricably linked to Uranium supply, even for LFTR.
TheMagicHorsey 9y ago
There are semi-infinite reserves in a LOT of other, easier to reach places too. Mining toxic chemicals from the ocean is lame when there are better alternatives. Its better for humanity if we pollute some isolated corner of the Outback or Manitoba rather than the open ocean.
mnemotronic 9y ago
Flashback to fabled seafloor manganese nodules [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganese_nodule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganese_nodule] and the Hughes Glomar Explorer [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Azorian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Azorian]
ryanx435 9y ago
How do I invest in the companies that are doing this, as an American?
tempodox 9y ago
So, ∞/2 is a thing?
- twic 9y ago
  Close: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-infinite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-infinite
greptomania 9y ago
...so, finite then?
- bakhy 9y ago
  Yes and no.
berg01 9y ago
Now have the same team map other parts of the world! I bet these elements are not as rare as they are thought to be. I grew up like ten minutes from where nine natural elements where first identified: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ytterby https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ytterby Pretty sure that place isn't globally unique, but the people identifying the elements were.
fapjacks 9y ago
"Semi-infinite" doesn't sound any less silly than "nearly impossible". Something which surely everyone in this thread has used before.

67 points by ph0rque 9y ago

Sounds like political noise. Mining is always, always about how efficiently (read: cheaply) the desired thing can be separated from the chaff. That determines entirely whether its a doable thing. And they make only handwavy claims about that.

lainga 9y ago

Does this mean a bijection between the natural numbers and the rare-earth elements? :) But really, is this one of the reasons the Senkaku/Diaoyu fight is so heated? Forget national pride or fishing rights, China doesn't want to see its rare-earth monopoly undermined by deposits in Japanese waters (hypothetically). EDIT: Never mind, Minamitori is near Wake Island in the mid-Pacific.

lisper 9y ago
Why "never mind"? Wake Island is disputed territory (per Wikipedia "The island is an unorganized, unincorporated territory of the United States that is also claimed by the Republic of the Marshall Islands"). This could get interesting if China suddenly makes friends with the RMI.
- lainga 9y ago
  That is an interesting point, but I think the PLAN can bring force to the East China Sea disputes much easier than something between Guam and Wake. I don't think the US would allow them to even build up forces in the Marshalls without hostilities.
  - lisper 9y ago
    They wouldn't do it by building up forces, they would do it by building an airport. https://nextcity.org/features/view/the-worlds-emptiest-airport-is-a-red-flag https://nextcity.org/features/view/the-worlds-emptiest-airpo...
    - lainga 9y ago
      I can see where you are going, but there is a big difference between building dual-use infrastructure and actually moving forces there. If the Liaoning and its screens decide to weigh anchor and steam halfway toward Hawaii, the entire world and the USN will probably wake up and say "oh shit, what are you doing?"
      - SaintGhurka 9y ago
        I think what the parent was pointing out was the infrastructure China built in Sri Lanka eventually led to SL deeding over some territory to China to cover the debt. I guess the implication is that they'll get Marshall Islands indebted to them, force them to sign over their claim to Wake Island to settle the debt and then China would somehow militarily press that claim.
        lisper 9y ago
        Or something like that. The Chinese are currently playing a much longer game than any other nation on earth.
      - lisper 9y ago
        "We are defending the Republic of the Marshall Islands at the behest of the government thereof."

comfrey 9y ago

My new favorite word combo “Semi-infinite”

xnaas 9y ago
Here I am, sitting at work, trying to come up with silly ways to pronounce a combination of "semi" and "infinite." Seminfinite -- sim-infinite -- has a nice ring to it when said quickly.
ph0rque 9y ago
ℵ_-0.5 :)

mchannon 9y ago

Not all rare earths are created equal, and the more common ones are so commonplace and cheap that it'd be ludicrous to mine them undersea (even undersea gold mining has yet to have an impact on the world market for gold). Further, it's an open secret in the mining industry that assays and estimates of deposits are frequently false, often by design. If you thought there was a lot of stupid money in ICO's and California startups, take a look at early stage mining concerns. China's dominant position in rare earth mining is probably better described as a "race to the bottom" rather than a monopoly position. Mountain Pass (now Chinese-owned, by the way) isn't going anywhere, and it, or a comparably rich deposit on land somewhere else, will get started up as soon as it makes economic sense. Speaking of somewhere else, if you've got money to sink into "heavy" REE mining concerns (with proven and verifiable reserves in the US) drop me a line.

noetic_techy 9y ago

They aren't rare, they are just really expensive to mine and process in the western world. The chemicals involved are nasty and radioactive waste is one of the byproducts. China has lax enough environmental laws and is willing to absorb the blow. Wonder if enough R&D could solve the processing problems.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
SquirrelOnFire 9y ago
My understanding is that the main radioactive waste from rare earth mining is Thorium - a pretty easy to handle material (the US just buries it in landfills, which is enough to contain it) with the potential to be a valuable resource in itself once LFTRs get off the ground again, which China and India are working pretty hard on.
- mchannon 9y ago
  The main radioactive waste from rare earth mining is indeed Thorium. It is not a pretty easy to handle material. Check out https://projects.newyorker.com/story/radioactive-nyc/ https://projects.newyorker.com/story/radioactive-nyc/ to learn how Thorium from rare earth refining a century ago made NYC into a radioactive waste site. Thorium is not responsibly managed in landfills. LFTR's have never "gotten off the ground". Even if they achieved some extraordinary combination of breakthroughs over the next 10 years, we wouldn't come close to using all the available Thorium that exists near the REE we have. As a fertile (but not fissile) element, Thorium demand will be inextricably linked to Uranium supply, even for LFTR.

TheMagicHorsey 9y ago

There are semi-infinite reserves in a LOT of other, easier to reach places too. Mining toxic chemicals from the ocean is lame when there are better alternatives. Its better for humanity if we pollute some isolated corner of the Outback or Manitoba rather than the open ocean.

mnemotronic 9y ago

Flashback to fabled seafloor manganese nodules [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganese_nodule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganese_nodule] and the Hughes Glomar Explorer [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Azorian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Azorian]

ryanx435 9y ago

How do I invest in the companies that are doing this, as an American?

tempodox 9y ago

So, ∞/2 is a thing?

twic 9y ago
Close: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-infinite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-infinite

greptomania 9y ago

...so, finite then?

bakhy 9y ago
Yes and no.

berg01 9y ago

Now have the same team map other parts of the world! I bet these elements are not as rare as they are thought to be. I grew up like ten minutes from where nine natural elements where first identified: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ytterby https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ytterby Pretty sure that place isn't globally unique, but the people identifying the elements were.

fapjacks 9y ago

"Semi-infinite" doesn't sound any less silly than "nearly impossible". Something which surely everyone in this thread has used before.