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> They got unlimited paid time off (yes, you read that right—some companies offer unlimited vacation time to compete for talent). I started reading the article

> They got unlimited paid time off (yes, you read that right—some companies offer unlimited vacation time to compete for talent). I started reading the article with skepticism after that. At my previous startup, unlimited vacation time ended up meaning no vacation time. Sounds great in theory, not in practice. When I left, I did not get reimbursed for the unofficial ~15 paid vacation days we're technically allowed.

donretag 9y ago
Exactly. I will never work again for a company with unlimited PTO.
- 2trill2spill 9y ago
  I guess it depends on your company, At my company we have unlimited PTO and I definitely get more PTO days then people with a set number of PTO days at other companies.
  - otterley 9y ago
    Are you in engineering? Ask around sometime: The amount of time people feel entitled to take at “unlimited PTO” companies varies widely by department and role and how much competition there is for your position. People who feel extreme pressure to perform are likely to take much less time off, especially when they know they’re not entitled to a specific amount.
    - Posibyte 9y ago
      There's also this weird dynamic of not having number on paper. I once took off three weeks for vacation, first in a very long time, several years. When I got back, there was definitely this air of "so and so is finally back, working like the rest of us." Even with my direct management, it felt a lot like I had spent trust for time off. Since then, I've worked in a large corporate job for a while now as well, and it's different. Here, management and I can look at my PTO sheet and see I've accrued X hours so I can take off Y weeks, and that's earned. It feels more like a contractual obligation at that point, and not just an off-the-cuff spree.
      - 2trill2spill 9y ago
        > I once took off three weeks for vacation, first in a very long time, several years. When I got back, there was definitely this air of "so and so is finally back, working like the rest of us." Even with my direct management, it felt a lot like I had spent trust for time off. That's too bad. The person who sits to the left of me just got back from a 6 week long vacation and I have not noticed anyone being upset or treating them differently afterwards. We caught them up with the stuff that happened while they were gone and they went right back to helping the team.
    - 2trill2spill 9y ago
      Yea, I'm in the Engineering department and at my company it depends on your manager for the unlimited PTO. My manager is awesome so I can take time off pretty much whenever.
    - adeeshaek 9y ago
      I was similarly skeptical about `Unlimited PTO` companies, but I am currently working at a tech startup in NYC with Unlimited PTO (we don't track time off) where the norm is for engineers to take about 4 (sometimes 5) weeks off a year. The workload is high, but it's very common for engineers to take a week off after a big, stressful project is delivered. Because the norm for vacation is set high, I don't feel bad about taking as much time off as I feel I need. It really helps that our CTO also takes at least a 2 week vacation every year and takes time off for himself when he needs it. Having said all this, I am not too optimistic, in that I don't believe this situation is very common in the industry.
  - BigChiefSmokem 9y ago
    When I worked for (WIFI) I got more days too, but less options and a meager wage compared to companies right down the street. They had an abusive scrum process and overly aggressive agile practices as well. Managers would coerce employees to revise and lower estimates on non-critical items thus increasing stress unecessarly and necessitating the need for a lot of people to take a lot of "mental health" days off.
  - TomVDB 9y ago
    That's my experience as well. I was initially against it, but my company (or at least my department?) is now very good at making sure people get sufficient time off.
    - 2trill2spill 9y ago
      Yea I've been reminded by my manager more then once to make sure to take time off when I first started the job which is awesome, it made me feel like unlimited PTO was actually the policy.
koverda 9y ago
Why didn't you take time off?
- alephnan 9y ago
  Whenever I asked, there would always be some project, deadline or fire. It was my first job out of college. I was naive and didn’t realize ‘no’ was an acceptable answer. With unlimited vacation days, it was this gray area where I didn’t know where the line should be draw. When you don’t draw the line, management will draw that line for you.
  - koverda 9y ago
    How far in advance did they have deadlines and fires that you couldn't get time off? Seems strange to me, but I guess it really depends on management.
    - alephnan 9y ago
      I worked on the Data Science team. We were headcount strapped. At the same time, we were crucial to the rest of the business operation. At the time, data science positions were hard to fill. At least when you don’t want to fork out exorbitant compensation. On the one hand, we managed our own infrastructure which was unstable at the time. On the other hand, there were a constant stream of business campaigns (every week) which depended on the data science team updating the data warehouse. I got sick my first week, and even then was coerced to come in. That set precedence for me about what the expectations were.
gautamnarula 9y ago
I think the only way to get around this loophole is for companies that offer "unlimited vacation" to have a mandatory minimum amount of vacation, and if you leave without taking the full mandatory minimum you're compensated based on those unused vacation days. For instance, if I were running/when I run a company I'd offer unlimited vacation with a two week mandatory minimum, which rolls over up to a four week mandatory minimum. So if you only use one week of vacation in year 1 and then leave, you'd be paid for a week's worth of vacation. If you stay on to year two, your new mandatory minimum is three weeks and you'd be compensated accordingly if you left without using it all.
ljw1001 9y ago
I worked for one company where, as soon as the old earned time-off balances were wiped away, management of the biggest engineering group started telling people they couldn't take more than 4 weeks off. Sure, it was 3 weeks before the change, but you could roll it over, or be paid for it if you left.
borplk 9y ago
Required reading for anyone not familiar with this absolute corporate slavery scam: http://archive.fo/ByJ8X http://archive.fo/ByJ8X

donretag 9y ago

Exactly. I will never work again for a company with unlimited PTO.

2trill2spill 9y ago
I guess it depends on your company, At my company we have unlimited PTO and I definitely get more PTO days then people with a set number of PTO days at other companies.
- otterley 9y ago
  Are you in engineering? Ask around sometime: The amount of time people feel entitled to take at “unlimited PTO” companies varies widely by department and role and how much competition there is for your position. People who feel extreme pressure to perform are likely to take much less time off, especially when they know they’re not entitled to a specific amount.
  - Posibyte 9y ago
    There's also this weird dynamic of not having number on paper. I once took off three weeks for vacation, first in a very long time, several years. When I got back, there was definitely this air of "so and so is finally back, working like the rest of us." Even with my direct management, it felt a lot like I had spent trust for time off. Since then, I've worked in a large corporate job for a while now as well, and it's different. Here, management and I can look at my PTO sheet and see I've accrued X hours so I can take off Y weeks, and that's earned. It feels more like a contractual obligation at that point, and not just an off-the-cuff spree.
    - 2trill2spill 9y ago
      > I once took off three weeks for vacation, first in a very long time, several years. When I got back, there was definitely this air of "so and so is finally back, working like the rest of us." Even with my direct management, it felt a lot like I had spent trust for time off. That's too bad. The person who sits to the left of me just got back from a 6 week long vacation and I have not noticed anyone being upset or treating them differently afterwards. We caught them up with the stuff that happened while they were gone and they went right back to helping the team.
  - 2trill2spill 9y ago
    Yea, I'm in the Engineering department and at my company it depends on your manager for the unlimited PTO. My manager is awesome so I can take time off pretty much whenever.
  - adeeshaek 9y ago
    I was similarly skeptical about `Unlimited PTO` companies, but I am currently working at a tech startup in NYC with Unlimited PTO (we don't track time off) where the norm is for engineers to take about 4 (sometimes 5) weeks off a year. The workload is high, but it's very common for engineers to take a week off after a big, stressful project is delivered. Because the norm for vacation is set high, I don't feel bad about taking as much time off as I feel I need. It really helps that our CTO also takes at least a 2 week vacation every year and takes time off for himself when he needs it. Having said all this, I am not too optimistic, in that I don't believe this situation is very common in the industry.
- BigChiefSmokem 9y ago
  When I worked for (WIFI) I got more days too, but less options and a meager wage compared to companies right down the street. They had an abusive scrum process and overly aggressive agile practices as well. Managers would coerce employees to revise and lower estimates on non-critical items thus increasing stress unecessarly and necessitating the need for a lot of people to take a lot of "mental health" days off.
- TomVDB 9y ago
  That's my experience as well. I was initially against it, but my company (or at least my department?) is now very good at making sure people get sufficient time off.
  - 2trill2spill 9y ago
    Yea I've been reminded by my manager more then once to make sure to take time off when I first started the job which is awesome, it made me feel like unlimited PTO was actually the policy.

koverda 9y ago

Why didn't you take time off?

alephnan 9y ago
Whenever I asked, there would always be some project, deadline or fire. It was my first job out of college. I was naive and didn’t realize ‘no’ was an acceptable answer. With unlimited vacation days, it was this gray area where I didn’t know where the line should be draw. When you don’t draw the line, management will draw that line for you.
- koverda 9y ago
  How far in advance did they have deadlines and fires that you couldn't get time off? Seems strange to me, but I guess it really depends on management.
  - alephnan 9y ago
    I worked on the Data Science team. We were headcount strapped. At the same time, we were crucial to the rest of the business operation. At the time, data science positions were hard to fill. At least when you don’t want to fork out exorbitant compensation. On the one hand, we managed our own infrastructure which was unstable at the time. On the other hand, there were a constant stream of business campaigns (every week) which depended on the data science team updating the data warehouse. I got sick my first week, and even then was coerced to come in. That set precedence for me about what the expectations were.

gautamnarula 9y ago

I think the only way to get around this loophole is for companies that offer "unlimited vacation" to have a mandatory minimum amount of vacation, and if you leave without taking the full mandatory minimum you're compensated based on those unused vacation days. For instance, if I were running/when I run a company I'd offer unlimited vacation with a two week mandatory minimum, which rolls over up to a four week mandatory minimum. So if you only use one week of vacation in year 1 and then leave, you'd be paid for a week's worth of vacation. If you stay on to year two, your new mandatory minimum is three weeks and you'd be compensated accordingly if you left without using it all.

ljw1001 9y ago

I worked for one company where, as soon as the old earned time-off balances were wiped away, management of the biggest engineering group started telling people they couldn't take more than 4 weeks off. Sure, it was 3 weeks before the change, but you could roll it over, or be paid for it if you left.

borplk 9y ago

Required reading for anyone not familiar with this absolute corporate slavery scam: http://archive.fo/ByJ8X http://archive.fo/ByJ8X