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FWIW I did not downvote you. I welcome criticism as it often helps adjust perceptions and behaviors. It has nothing to do with what I'm comfortable with him s

FWIW I did not downvote you. I welcome criticism as it often helps adjust perceptions and behaviors. It has nothing to do with what I'm comfortable with him seeing. As a parent I try to instill my perception of good values in my child, while allowing him to develop his own take on them. Everyone's values are different and what I value, you may not. But there has to be a framework of rules and consequences and he has to learn to operate in that framework, preferably before he is an adult and consequences are things like fines and jail. You've made an assumption that the issue here is my problem with being uncomfortable with something, which I feel is not an accurate assumption. The rest of your argument is based on that assumption. I'd be happy to discuss the accuracy of this assumption, perhaps I can learn something.

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
> As a parent I try to instill my perception of good values in my child, while allowing him to develop his own take on them. So ... how does that "developing his own take on them" work if you prevent him from perceiving the world? > Everyone's values are different and what I value, you may not. And equally, your child may not. There is a fine line between helping your child navigate the world and decide what they value and why and forcing them to adopt your values. > But there has to be a framework of rules and consequences and he has to learn to operate in that framework Actually, no, and that approach to understanding interactions with the world is toxic, as it is essentially learning to submit to authority, rather than learning to live as a citizen in a society among equals who share a space. Rules and consequences should be the last line of defence for a society as far as preventing anti-social behaviour is concerned, not something that teaches you how to live. You learn to live by understanding how fairness works, how reciprocity works, how cooperation helps everyone achieve more, essentially by understanding how to make society work. Because that is the only way a citizen in a democratic society can be expected to participate in defining the rules and consequences that then are enforced as a last line of defence against the minority who would otherwise ruin it for everyone. In a democracy, the citizens have to make the rules. You cannot make the rules by following the rules. Following rules is not a virtue. Behaving in a way that is in accordance with a possibly hypothetical fair and balanced set of rules is. But you can't learn that by being forced to obey a rule that you don't see as fair or balanced. > You've made an assumption that the issue here is my problem with being uncomfortable with something, which I feel is not an accurate assumption. The rest of your argument is based on that assumption. Well, yeah, it is somewhat of an assumption, but it still seems likely to me. I mean, what is the value that you are trying to get your child to accept by limiting what he can look at on the internet, and is there anything besides porn that you try to prevent him from accessing?
- sathackr 9y ago
  > > As a parent I try to instill my perception of good values in my child, while allowing him to develop his own take on them. > So ... how does that "developing his own take on them" work if you prevent him from perceiving the world? I only prevent him from perceiving what I feel is the most harmful parts of the world to an undeveloped mind. I solicit his input, and my reliance on that will increase as his maturity does. I wouldn't ask a 3 year old if they felt they should watch porn. But have asked my 12 year old that. And them for him to explain his answer. >> Everyone's values are different and what I value, you may not. >And equally, your child may not. There is a fine line between helping your child navigate the world and decide what they value and why and forcing them to adopt your values. Agreed. One the many fine lines a good parent has to toe. > > But there has to be a framework of rules and consequences and he has to learn to operate in that framework > Actually, no, and that approach to understanding interactions with the world is toxic, as it is essentially learning to submit to authority, rather than learning to live as a citizen in a society among equals who share a space. A valid point, but only if my execution was in a manner to be repressive or authoritarian. I don't use the 'my house, my rules' approach. I use the 'lets sit down and discuss this' approach. When he was younger I would always kneel down so that we were at eye-level with each other. Mutual respect should be the driving principal for all behavior. I teach the 'Platinum rule' -- Treat others the way they want to be treated. I mostly agree with the rest of the post. To answer your last question: "...is there anything besides porn that you try to prevent him from accessing?" -- Sites tagged by Sophos as VPN, proxy, ad networks, and malware. VPN and proxy as they can make the porn filter ineffective. Ad networks and malware just for the general protection of the devices.
  - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
    Well, that mostly sounds good ... except your actions seem to contradict your words? From what I can tell, he wants to look at porn, and he thinks there is nothing wrong with it. Whatever the conclusion of your conversation with him was, he is obviously not convinced that he shouldn't, at best he ends up expressing agreement because he is dependent on you. The only reason why he now does it without you knowing and without any possibility of discussing with you when he sees something that disturbs him is that you force him to, not because he agrees with you. You say that you are not authoritarian, but your actions say the opposite. Either you are exercising power or you are not, whether you dress it up in nice words, doesn't change whether it is authoritarian. Now, you constantly repeat that you want to protect him from danger, and I guess some of your authoritarian behaviour may hinge on that. After all, authoritarian action is somewhat justified if you know that without it, harm will follow. The problem is that based on what you have written here, you don't know that. You have referenced some extremely unscientific ideas and sources and shown some biases that suggest that you are not rationally evaluating the actual risks and dangers of your child's wishes and your authoritarian responses, but are probably more acting based on your own emotional response. The danger that you are imagining most likely isn't there, but the damage that you do by restricting your child in order to protect him from this imaginary danger is real, both in that it is damaging his trust in you, and in that you are making him internalize that his probably perfectly healthy sexual curiousity is a problem that he has to fight against.
sathackr 9y ago
delete because I meant to reply to sibling, not parent

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago

> As a parent I try to instill my perception of good values in my child, while allowing him to develop his own take on them. So ... how does that "developing his own take on them" work if you prevent him from perceiving the world? > Everyone's values are different and what I value, you may not. And equally, your child may not. There is a fine line between helping your child navigate the world and decide what they value and why and forcing them to adopt your values. > But there has to be a framework of rules and consequences and he has to learn to operate in that framework Actually, no, and that approach to understanding interactions with the world is toxic, as it is essentially learning to submit to authority, rather than learning to live as a citizen in a society among equals who share a space. Rules and consequences should be the last line of defence for a society as far as preventing anti-social behaviour is concerned, not something that teaches you how to live. You learn to live by understanding how fairness works, how reciprocity works, how cooperation helps everyone achieve more, essentially by understanding how to make society work. Because that is the only way a citizen in a democratic society can be expected to participate in defining the rules and consequences that then are enforced as a last line of defence against the minority who would otherwise ruin it for everyone. In a democracy, the citizens have to make the rules. You cannot make the rules by following the rules. Following rules is not a virtue. Behaving in a way that is in accordance with a possibly hypothetical fair and balanced set of rules is. But you can't learn that by being forced to obey a rule that you don't see as fair or balanced. > You've made an assumption that the issue here is my problem with being uncomfortable with something, which I feel is not an accurate assumption. The rest of your argument is based on that assumption. Well, yeah, it is somewhat of an assumption, but it still seems likely to me. I mean, what is the value that you are trying to get your child to accept by limiting what he can look at on the internet, and is there anything besides porn that you try to prevent him from accessing?

sathackr 9y ago
> > As a parent I try to instill my perception of good values in my child, while allowing him to develop his own take on them. > So ... how does that "developing his own take on them" work if you prevent him from perceiving the world? I only prevent him from perceiving what I feel is the most harmful parts of the world to an undeveloped mind. I solicit his input, and my reliance on that will increase as his maturity does. I wouldn't ask a 3 year old if they felt they should watch porn. But have asked my 12 year old that. And them for him to explain his answer. >> Everyone's values are different and what I value, you may not. >And equally, your child may not. There is a fine line between helping your child navigate the world and decide what they value and why and forcing them to adopt your values. Agreed. One the many fine lines a good parent has to toe. > > But there has to be a framework of rules and consequences and he has to learn to operate in that framework > Actually, no, and that approach to understanding interactions with the world is toxic, as it is essentially learning to submit to authority, rather than learning to live as a citizen in a society among equals who share a space. A valid point, but only if my execution was in a manner to be repressive or authoritarian. I don't use the 'my house, my rules' approach. I use the 'lets sit down and discuss this' approach. When he was younger I would always kneel down so that we were at eye-level with each other. Mutual respect should be the driving principal for all behavior. I teach the 'Platinum rule' -- Treat others the way they want to be treated. I mostly agree with the rest of the post. To answer your last question: "...is there anything besides porn that you try to prevent him from accessing?" -- Sites tagged by Sophos as VPN, proxy, ad networks, and malware. VPN and proxy as they can make the porn filter ineffective. Ad networks and malware just for the general protection of the devices.
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
  Well, that mostly sounds good ... except your actions seem to contradict your words? From what I can tell, he wants to look at porn, and he thinks there is nothing wrong with it. Whatever the conclusion of your conversation with him was, he is obviously not convinced that he shouldn't, at best he ends up expressing agreement because he is dependent on you. The only reason why he now does it without you knowing and without any possibility of discussing with you when he sees something that disturbs him is that you force him to, not because he agrees with you. You say that you are not authoritarian, but your actions say the opposite. Either you are exercising power or you are not, whether you dress it up in nice words, doesn't change whether it is authoritarian. Now, you constantly repeat that you want to protect him from danger, and I guess some of your authoritarian behaviour may hinge on that. After all, authoritarian action is somewhat justified if you know that without it, harm will follow. The problem is that based on what you have written here, you don't know that. You have referenced some extremely unscientific ideas and sources and shown some biases that suggest that you are not rationally evaluating the actual risks and dangers of your child's wishes and your authoritarian responses, but are probably more acting based on your own emotional response. The danger that you are imagining most likely isn't there, but the damage that you do by restricting your child in order to protect him from this imaginary danger is real, both in that it is damaging his trust in you, and in that you are making him internalize that his probably perfectly healthy sexual curiousity is a problem that he has to fight against.

sathackr 9y ago

delete because I meant to reply to sibling, not parent