4 ms·

The statements you quoted are about apathetic students. Do you have a cure for apathy in learning? I don't. Teachers come in a variety of talents and have a

by sykh 9y ago

The statements you quoted are about apathetic students. Do you have a cure for apathy in learning? I don't. Teachers come in a variety of talents and have a variety of teaching styles. One thing that colleges do poorly is align a student's learning style with a teacher's teaching style. Is a teacher supposed to be a great motivator? I don't know. I do know that I'm not particularly good in the inspiration department. I'm enthusiastic. I think I'm good at explaining stuff. Students might not do their homework and engage with the subject for all sorts of reasons apart from apathy. They might have depression, be too stressed out, or have a host of other emotional problems that affect their performance and engagement. They might have taken on too large of a course load, or might not be getting enough sleep because of work they're doing outside of school or be preoccupied in taking care of their family. I was attempting to only reference apathetic students. They are a subset of the students who don't do the work required of them. What you write is certainly true; particularly at community colleges. However, as I tell my students, for each person it requires x amount of hours (x varies from person to person) to master the material. If you don't have the time, inclination, ability, or are otherwise incapable of devoting x hours to the learning the subject then you won't learn it. Nothing will change this. If a student can't devote 5 hours a week to a 5 credit course in homework then they likely won't do well. The reason for their inability is somewhat irrelevant in the sense that one needs to put in the effort. If you can't you won't learn the material. Nothing I do can change this fact. What I can do is to try to make x as small as possible for each person. I try.

Bjartr 9y ago
If you had a class on only apathetic students, would you put minimal effort into teaching any of them? Or would you distribute the effort you normally reserve for non-apathetic students?
- sykh 9y ago
  It's an interesting hypothetical. Here's how I run the course. I have lectures for each topic (the lectures I've created). Accompanying the lectures are problem sets along with solutions. Students are expected to watch the lecture and attempted some of the problems before coming to class. In class I pass out a problem set. Usually 30 to 40 problems. At the beginning of the semester I have around 35 students in the class. When I pass out the problem set I go around helping students with the problems. They typically get into groups of 3 or 4. Since I have a lot of students I can't waste my time on someone who didn't bother to even watch the lecture. It's not fair to those who did watch the lecture and need help. I've never encountered a situation in which no one watched the lecture. I don't know what my response would be if that happened.
pmoriarty 9y ago
"The statements you quoted are about apathetic students. Do you have a cure for apathy in learning? I don't." You have to look for the cause of the apathy to have any hope of "curing" it. Was the apathy caused by depression? Then you have to treat the depression. Was it caused by lack of interest in the subject? Well, then you have to get students interested in the subject, and so on. Usually there are reasons for the poor attitudes some students have towards learning, and helps to understand those reasons before one can be effective at channeling them towards something more positive. "If a student can't devote 5 hours a week to a 5 credit course in homework then they likely won't do well. The reason for their inability is somewhat irrelevant in the sense that one needs to put in the effort. If you can't you won't learn the material. Nothing I do can change this fact." You can't change the amount of work required, but you and the school as a whole can influence the student's willingness and ability to put in that amount of work. "Is a teacher supposed to be a great motivator? I don't know. I do know that I'm not particularly good in the inspiration department." If you're not, then you're just not going to be as effective as a teacher who is good at inspiring students. Whether or not a teacher is "supposed to" be a great motivator, there's no denying that when the goal is having students learn, and when student apathy is a real problem, having inspiring teachers should be a priority.
- sykh 9y ago
  The number of inspiring people is much less than the number of teaching positions. And the number of inspiring mathematically talented people with enough knowledge to teach mathematics is much less than the number of math teaching positions. With a 100 students each semester I don’t have the time or inclination to find out about their personal struggles. We are here to learn mathematics. If that is not true of a person then they shouldn’t be taking math classes. Such is my general view in the matter. I’m not an extremist and exceptions do apply. If a student, for whatever reason, can’t devote the required time to a course then they shouldn’t take it. The best teacher in my department, the most inspiring one too, complains about student apathy all the time. Some people just shouldn’t be in college. Many would benefit from waiting to mature and otherwise be prepared. I can’t magically make someone want to learn. I like the Chinese proverb that says a teacher can only open the door to the house of knowledge, he can’t make you enter.
SilasX 9y ago
>The statements you quoted are about apathetic students. Do you have a cure for apathy in learning? I don't. The "cure" is to recognize that you're solving the wrong problem. Universities originated when there were highly motivated learners, actually interested in the material and taking an active interest in peppering the lecturers with questions. Today, it's de facto purpose is to get a credential and network with useful people. Learning the material is almost entirely orthogonal to why they're there, so of course they're doing the minimum to pass (or receive a high enough grade). Trying to get the students interested in the material is just digging the hole deeper. The answer is to stop digging! Specifically: find a better mechanism by which people can network and signal their abilities. Leave universities to be attended by people who actually care about the material and who actually use it as an interactive experience for which it's best suited.
- sykh 9y ago
  Yes, there has been a change in the purpose of higher education in the U.S. As you say the credential is the goal and not knowledge. This is especially so at urban community colleges. All I can do as a teacher at a community college is try to give them as much knowledge as possible. It’s a hard job. I can’t change the underlying causes of the problem. I’ve got to do what I can with the situation I’m confronting.
- pmoriarty 9y ago
  "find a better mechanism by which people can network and signal their abilities. Leave universities to be attended by people who actually care about the material and who actually use it as an interactive experience for which it's best suited." Then you're going to have fewer truly educated people than you could have if you didn't give up on them. Other societies with much better education systems than the US show that it is possible to bring more people aboard. It will take a reform of the education system, but not a reform that caters to the lucky few who love to learn, but rather one that encourages the love of learning in more people.
  - SilasX 9y ago
    The solution that better countries have is actually pretty similar in spirit to what I proposed. Germany: 1) Provide valid alternatives to credentialing (e.g. a good trade school path), so they've drained off demand for university-style credential. 2) Strictly limit who can go by a test, so you don't have people wasting their time there. 3) Strictly limit how much they can charge, so they don't compete over providing runaway bloat.

by sykh 9y ago

Bjartr 9y ago

If you had a class on only apathetic students, would you put minimal effort into teaching any of them? Or would you distribute the effort you normally reserve for non-apathetic students?

sykh 9y ago
It's an interesting hypothetical. Here's how I run the course. I have lectures for each topic (the lectures I've created). Accompanying the lectures are problem sets along with solutions. Students are expected to watch the lecture and attempted some of the problems before coming to class. In class I pass out a problem set. Usually 30 to 40 problems. At the beginning of the semester I have around 35 students in the class. When I pass out the problem set I go around helping students with the problems. They typically get into groups of 3 or 4. Since I have a lot of students I can't waste my time on someone who didn't bother to even watch the lecture. It's not fair to those who did watch the lecture and need help. I've never encountered a situation in which no one watched the lecture. I don't know what my response would be if that happened.

pmoriarty 9y ago

"The statements you quoted are about apathetic students. Do you have a cure for apathy in learning? I don't." You have to look for the cause of the apathy to have any hope of "curing" it. Was the apathy caused by depression? Then you have to treat the depression. Was it caused by lack of interest in the subject? Well, then you have to get students interested in the subject, and so on. Usually there are reasons for the poor attitudes some students have towards learning, and helps to understand those reasons before one can be effective at channeling them towards something more positive. "If a student can't devote 5 hours a week to a 5 credit course in homework then they likely won't do well. The reason for their inability is somewhat irrelevant in the sense that one needs to put in the effort. If you can't you won't learn the material. Nothing I do can change this fact." You can't change the amount of work required, but you and the school as a whole can influence the student's willingness and ability to put in that amount of work. "Is a teacher supposed to be a great motivator? I don't know. I do know that I'm not particularly good in the inspiration department." If you're not, then you're just not going to be as effective as a teacher who is good at inspiring students. Whether or not a teacher is "supposed to" be a great motivator, there's no denying that when the goal is having students learn, and when student apathy is a real problem, having inspiring teachers should be a priority.

sykh 9y ago
The number of inspiring people is much less than the number of teaching positions. And the number of inspiring mathematically talented people with enough knowledge to teach mathematics is much less than the number of math teaching positions. With a 100 students each semester I don’t have the time or inclination to find out about their personal struggles. We are here to learn mathematics. If that is not true of a person then they shouldn’t be taking math classes. Such is my general view in the matter. I’m not an extremist and exceptions do apply. If a student, for whatever reason, can’t devote the required time to a course then they shouldn’t take it. The best teacher in my department, the most inspiring one too, complains about student apathy all the time. Some people just shouldn’t be in college. Many would benefit from waiting to mature and otherwise be prepared. I can’t magically make someone want to learn. I like the Chinese proverb that says a teacher can only open the door to the house of knowledge, he can’t make you enter.

SilasX 9y ago

>The statements you quoted are about apathetic students. Do you have a cure for apathy in learning? I don't. The "cure" is to recognize that you're solving the wrong problem. Universities originated when there were highly motivated learners, actually interested in the material and taking an active interest in peppering the lecturers with questions. Today, it's de facto purpose is to get a credential and network with useful people. Learning the material is almost entirely orthogonal to why they're there, so of course they're doing the minimum to pass (or receive a high enough grade). Trying to get the students interested in the material is just digging the hole deeper. The answer is to stop digging! Specifically: find a better mechanism by which people can network and signal their abilities. Leave universities to be attended by people who actually care about the material and who actually use it as an interactive experience for which it's best suited.

sykh 9y ago
Yes, there has been a change in the purpose of higher education in the U.S. As you say the credential is the goal and not knowledge. This is especially so at urban community colleges. All I can do as a teacher at a community college is try to give them as much knowledge as possible. It’s a hard job. I can’t change the underlying causes of the problem. I’ve got to do what I can with the situation I’m confronting.
pmoriarty 9y ago
"find a better mechanism by which people can network and signal their abilities. Leave universities to be attended by people who actually care about the material and who actually use it as an interactive experience for which it's best suited." Then you're going to have fewer truly educated people than you could have if you didn't give up on them. Other societies with much better education systems than the US show that it is possible to bring more people aboard. It will take a reform of the education system, but not a reform that caters to the lucky few who love to learn, but rather one that encourages the love of learning in more people.
- SilasX 9y ago
  The solution that better countries have is actually pretty similar in spirit to what I proposed. Germany: 1) Provide valid alternatives to credentialing (e.g. a good trade school path), so they've drained off demand for university-style credential. 2) Strictly limit who can go by a test, so you don't have people wasting their time there. 3) Strictly limit how much they can charge, so they don't compete over providing runaway bloat.