24 ms·

Dapps

114 points by petethomas 9y ago

stuartaxelowen 9y ago
Page appears to be down from Tokyo.
devilmoon 9y ago
"Error establishing a database connection"
- paulgb 9y ago
  If only he used a dapp as the database backend, we'd be able to read the post! /s
ssuva 9y ago
Link appears to be down - try here: https://avc.com/ https://avc.com/
ythn 9y ago
In my day we called "decentralized apps" simply "programs".
- codetrotter 9y ago
  What makes dapps "special" (i.e. why we have a separate name for them) is that they utilize a blockchain in one way or another. For example for storage or transfer of data.
  - tree_of_item 9y ago
    I think the point is that's not actually an interesting feature. The programs use an over-hyped database hoping to siphon off a bit of the hype...did we have a separate name for programs using NoSQL too?
    - jjallen 9y ago
      Yes, blockchains _have_ been overhyped thus far. But there is some promise to having distributed control over a database. For instance, you can build a company with [token|share]holders that no one controls -- a true cooperative. (full disclosure I work on this problem)
    - maxencecornet 9y ago
      >have a separate name for programs using NoSQL too? Yeah, horrible legacy projects that are a pain in the ass to maintain Source: I am working on a legacy API based on a noSQL database with a very dumb design (because the data was relational of course) in a very large company
      - ythn 9y ago
        > Yeah, horrible legacy projects that are a pain in the ass to maintain How can a "legacy" project be using noSQL? In my company, "legacy" projects are projects that have been around for 10+ years. MongoDB hasn't even been out a full 10 years, yet...
        maxencecornet 9y ago
        >How can a "legacy" project be using noSQL? A project doesn't need to be 10+ years old to be legacy. This API is 3y old, and was the first iteration, the v1, of the company's digital asset management API, it's only maintained for a few teams around the world, whereas the v2 is well crafted and has a way more logical datamodel Legacy != old
        ythn 9y ago
        It's just weird when I read stuff like "Yeah, I've had to do a bunch of maintenance on our legacy webpack/Angular 2 system" because in my mind webpack and Angular 2 are still very recent technologies, just not recent compared to webpack 2/Angular 5
    - andysomniac 9y ago
i04n 9y ago
One project I really like is Streamr. It looks promising. Monetizing realtime data on top of ethereum. It's great to see projects on top of ethereum creating real value.
- jabgrabdthrow 9y ago
  Do you own Streamr coins?
  - i04n 9y ago
    No, that would be a sin. Fred Wilson doesn't own ethereum either.
- weego 9y ago
  There's no value here! Even their own examples are so tenuous it's bizarre to me that anyone could post that with no sense of shame. 'what if what people know for free today would be wrapped up in an insane network of constantly negotiating prices for that same information'
  - i04n 9y ago
    I respect your point of view. I like the project as i like Golem. They are trying to build decentralized cloud services on top of an existing blockchain. Hacker news is not read by idiots, so please don't accuse me of trying to deceive readers. The average reader here is quite smart, they don't need your defense.
    - weego 9y ago
      I was just counter pointing your opinion, I absolutely don't think you were actively deceiving anyone.
htormey 9y ago
So what Dapps does anyone here use apart from decentralized exchanges and crypto kitties? One I came across recently that looks promising is joy stream: http://joystream.co http://joystream.co Joy stream appears to be a service which rewards people for hosting torrents. I could see this being used by a lot of people. Are their any services that provide usage figures for any of these Dapps? I’d be curious to know how much they are used as I think Dapp usage is a good bellwether for utility token valuation. I really want to see crypto currency move beyond just being used for speculation.
- RexetBlell 9y ago
  The Dai stable coin. Many different smart contracts are constantly working together to keep the token worth very close to 1 USD: https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/dai/ https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/dai/
  - sanderjd 9y ago
    Why is that good?
    - htormey 9y ago
      I assume because it allows you to trade in and out from crypto positions to something that tracks fiat. This of course assumes that this coin can actually hold its value in the event of a market crash. I also assume it’s not backed by real dollars held in a bank but some kind of basket of other cryptoassets right?
      - RexetBlell 9y ago
        No it is not backed by real dollars in a central location. It's a kind of a derivative. The way it works is very interesting. Recently Andreessen Horowitz and others invested 12M into the project.
      - mattnguyen 9y ago
        It's currently backed by ETH but is moving towards multi-collateral assets. Today, they announced a partnership with Omisego [1], with one goal to allow OMG to be used as a type of collateral. There's also chatter about using DIGIX, which is another stablecoin pegged to the price of gold. The mechanism by which they maintain stability is quite fascinating. From the whitepaper [2]: > The Dai Target Price is used to determine the collateral-to-debt ratio of a CDP, and thus the Target Price represents the price at which Dai is backed by collateral in the long term. The Target Price is continuously adjusted according to the current Target Rate. Automatic Target Rate adjustments ensure that the Dai market price remains stabilized around the Target Price in the short term. > When the market price of Dai is below the Target Price, the Target Rate increases. This causes the Target Price to increase at a higher rate, causing generation of Dai to become more expensive. This leads to CDP users covering their CDPs and leaving the ecosystem, causing the outstanding supply of Dai to decrease. At the same time, the increased Target Rate causes the capital gains from holding Dai to increase, leading to a corresponding increase in Dai demand. This combination of reduced supply and increased demand causes the Dai market price to increase, pushing it up towards the Target Price. [1] https://medium.com/makerdao/makerdao-and-omisego-announcing-dai-and-omg-collaborations-23600a080046 https://medium.com/makerdao/makerdao-and-omisego-announcing-... [2] https://github.com/makerdao/docs/blob/master/Dai.md#target-price-target-rate-and-the-sensitivity-parameter https://github.com/makerdao/docs/blob/master/Dai.md#target-p...
sancha_ 9y ago
Can someone explain to me why I should pay to use the dapp Twitter clone?
- jabgrabdthrow 9y ago
  You definitely shouldn't!
  - forcer 9y ago
    If the price is meaningless amount I would actually be more comfortable paying than being a "product" that is being sold. Especially if there is no friction in paying and apps would subtract little amounts of cryptocurrency and I could review from time to time if all is in check
- RexetBlell 9y ago
  Censorship resistance. Twitter could delete your account (or some of your tweets) if they wanted to. They could also prevent your tweets appearing in other people's feeds. And they have done this to some controversial figures. Basically a Dapp is a more neutral platform that costs money. Probably not worth the cost for the average person though.
- lifty 9y ago
  One reason is to move from being the product to being a user, so that your attention is not sold to the highest bidder and your behaviour manipulated in such a way that it produces the highest value. Of course, paying with your attention is a valid way of paying for things as long as the implications are clear. edit: spelling mistakes
  - paulgb 9y ago
    IMO, federation is a better model of this. With Mastodon, sure somebody is still paying server costs, but there is no unavoidable fee for the software/service and it has the same censorship-resistent properties. (I'd like to see signed messages in Mastodon but that's not a problem inherent to a federated model)
gammacrawler 9y ago
crypto should not mean cryptocurrency it should mean cryptography
- laurentoget 9y ago
  And distributed should mean distributed, not 'using a blockchain'.
  - beepboopah 9y ago
    Agreed
- zodiac 9y ago
  No, crypto should mean cryptosporidium, a microscopic parasite that causes diarrhea. Even the US CDC seems to agree in https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/crypto/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/crypto/index.html. (with credits to https://twitter.com/musalbas/status/973600356377808896 https://twitter.com/musalbas/status/973600356377808896)
rco8786 9y ago
> it sure feels like 2018 is the year we start getting decentralized applications (Dapps) we can use. does it, though?
- jjallen 9y ago
  Yes, it does to me: 0) Augur, decentralized prediction markets and a very early ICO has reached the bug bounty phase, getting much closer to launch (https://medium.com/@AugurProject/announcing-the-augur-bug-bounty-program-36034da9a4cf https://medium.com/@AugurProject/announcing-the-augur-bug-bo...) 1) Golem, another early ICO has launched (https://www.coindesk.com/golem-arrives-one-ethereums-ambitious-apps-finally-live/ https://www.coindesk.com/golem-arrives-one-ethereums-ambitio...) 2) Distense, a decentralized code-cooperative with be running on the Ethereum mainnet in a few weeks (disclosure: my project) (https://disten.se https://disten.se) 3) 550 more live here: https://www.stateofthedapps.com/ https://www.stateofthedapps.com/
  - davidivadavid 9y ago
    So they're close to launching or just launched. Any evidence suggesting they're not going to crash and burn in the short term?
    - jjallen 9y ago
      Well, yes, actually. Augur has undergone multiple security audits. https://medium.com/@AugurProject/augur-core-security-audit-report-cd6b4060ccf3 https://medium.com/@AugurProject/augur-core-security-audit-r...
timvdalen 9y ago
I'm getting a database connection error, which seems ironic given the subject of the post.
chvid 9y ago
"Error establishing a database connection" Is that irony?
common_ 9y ago
So much of VC funding is just about being in the right place at the right time. A lot of these guys seem like geniuses because of winning bets, but that's because nobody talks about their flops. It's entertaining watching all of the VCs who have made a major bet on crypto, who are now doubling down on what looks more like an overheated casino losing steam. Fred Wilson might end up watching the tide go out on this one. Maybe people will finally remember that he was part of Twitter's clueless board, the one that didn't think it was important to buy Instagram?
- StavrosK 9y ago
  Maybe it wasn't important at the time. Instagram only became wildly popular after they introduced stories, which they didn't have at the time, did they?
  - rrdharan 9y ago
    Instagram passed Twitter's DAU count well before the introduction of stories. https://www.yahoo.com/news/instagram-hits-300-million-users-passes-twitter-211203097.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/instagram-hits-300-million-users-... Stories is what they introduced to kill Snapchat's growth.
    - amasad 9y ago
      I think OP's larger point stands -- it might've played our differently had Twitter acquired instagram. Maybe they would've done what they did with Vine.
- taylorwc 9y ago
  This comment could benefit from a little more research. Sure, being a successful venture investor is about being in the right place at the right time, but USV is one of the best out there. Fred Wilson has written extensively about his flops and misses (they passed repeatedly on Airbnb for example), and has also written extensively about the dynamics of investing across risky-enough ideas that there are a lot of failures in a successful portfolio. Sure, Twitter has made a lot of ridiculous decisions, but as an early-stage investment, it returned the fund.
fiatjaf 9y ago
Not exactly a Dapp, but to me the first killer cryptocurrency use case is/will be Althea: https://altheamesh.com/ https://altheamesh.com/, incentivized mesh-networking and internet provider services with micropayments.
- jjallen 9y ago
  Can't wait to support Althea Mesh some more in the future! We don't live in a great place right now with much human-density at all. If we ever live in a city though I will be the first to put up a system that can run Althea Mesh. Anything to put a tiny dent in the last-mile providers.
- adangert 9y ago
  Hmm, I think one thing people forget, is that most of the time benevolent centralization, and revolution to another centralization when necessary is more valuable to consumers, than always on decentralization.
  - fiatjaf 9y ago
    I don't know how that comment applies to Althea.
keeptrying 9y ago
The big elephant in his post is the fact that you need to pay (ie buy ETH) to start using dapps. That’s a big stumbling psychological stumbling block that the “regular” internet doesn’t have. And I think that fact will shape whether any of us or the regular public ever launch a dapp. There will be a small set of services I believe which will cross this threshold. Not sure if it will be a large number or not.
- RexetBlell 9y ago
  In the future it will be possible to use Ethereum Dapps even if you don't have any ETH. The way it works now is that ETH is needed in order to pay for gas. However, it will be possible for the contract to pay for gas in the future. Developers would be able to add some ETH to their contract, so that it is free to use (or some parts of it are free) if they wanted to.
- dereg 9y ago
  The whole concept of gas is user hostile and is a huge setback to broad adoption.
  - atomical 9y ago
    It will eventually be automatically calculated. It currently is in some apps.
  - jjallen 9y ago
    It adds an extra hurdle to developing dapps as well. So many users in gitter channels I frequent run into problems with gas. But one thing is amazing is that once your dapp is deployed your backend is fully permanent and replicated 19,000 times [0] (which is both super good and super bad at the same time - no bug fixes in prod). [0] https://www.ethernodes.org/network/1/nodes https://www.ethernodes.org/network/1/nodes
  - simias 9y ago
    Isn't it integral to the way these dapps work however? Is there an other way to achieve the same results? After all eventually somebody has to pay the bill for there computations. It seems to me that the big problem of dapps is not so much the fact that you need to pay to deploy them but that you have to pay so much to do anything meaningful. The system is extremely expensive compared to regular "not-trustless" distributed/cloud computing offerings out there. For instance while browsing through the blockstack website I saw that the first such application was a "docs suite" (à la office/google docs) called "graphite": https://www.graphitedocs.com https://www.graphitedocs.com That seemed interesting but my first thought was "man, if they store the files in the blockchain that must be absurdly expensive to use". They probably thought the same so, according to the FAQ at https://www.graphitedocs.com/faq https://www.graphitedocs.com/faq : >By default, your data is stored in a dedicated Microsoft Azure Blob. But you can and should connect your Blockstack Browser to your own cloud storage solutions (preferably multiple). Oh. So that makes sense but doesn't that destroy the whole point of it? What if I decide to, say, use OpenOffice on my computer, encrypt the files using GnuPG and then upload them to dropbox, spideroak and some AWS bucket, wouldn't that effectively grant me the same privacy and control over my data? I'm going to sound like a naysayer but it just looks like yet an other example of using blockchain for the sake of saying that you use the blockchain. But of course it's just one dapp out of many. Let's see the next one, "stealthy": https://www.stealthy.im/ https://www.stealthy.im/ It's a "A secure decentralized communication platform". Now storing small text messages in the blockchain would still be very expensive but it might be acceptable, especially if you worry a lot about censorship or your message remaining available "forever". >By default, your data is stored in a dedicated Microsoft Azure Blob. But you can and should connect your Blockstack Browser to your own cloud storage solutions (preferably multiple). Oh. Nevermind then.
thisisit 9y ago
Sure Dapps might be an interesting concept but let's not pretend it is free from manipulation. Miners are the gatekeepers to the system. F2Pool is one of the biggest pools in Ethereum. It was alleged that they manipulated the Status ICO: https://themerkle.com/f2pool-allegedly-prevented-users-from-investing-in-status-ico/ https://themerkle.com/f2pool-allegedly-prevented-users-from-... They controlled 26.6% of the total Ethereum hashing power. So, lets say this twitter clone - Peepeth takes off. And then there is someone who wants to post some stuff against F2pool. What is stopping F2pool from manipulating the feed? You might say other miners controlling 75% of the hashrate will pick it up. Sure, you might be correct. But what if the post shits on every other mining pool out there? What happens then? What if the post is time sensitive? Decentralized apps can only go so far considering there has to be a record for the system to work. And if record keepers manipulate the system it will fail. The question becomes then: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
- splintercell 9y ago
  > And then there is someone who wants to post some stuff against F2pool. What is stopping F2pool from manipulating the feed? It's the difference between 'unstable equilibrium' vs 'stable equilibrium'. The power of a centralized entity on their service, like twitter on a feed is a stable equilibrium, they can modify something and not face too many repercussions (like when we see what happened with Wells Fargo scandal). On the other hand, the power of a major player in a decentralized setup is an 'unstable equilibrium', if you modify something into your favor, your power goes away really fast. And cryptocurrency networks have shown that they are extremely sensitive towards any changes or abuse of power made by a major player. It also makes a lot of sense from game theoretic perspective. The hard fork made by the Ethereum community was such an example, it was so contentious that even though they succeeded, they are very resistant towards any such changes in future. With Proof of Stake, the 'stability' of unstable equilibrium of F2Pool (presuming F2Pool is a large staking pool at that point) becomes even more unstable. In PoW if F2Pool performs a harmful action, then any attempts to undo that harmful action does not harm F2Pool, they just neutralize their attempt. Whereas in PoS consensus, any attempts by F2Pool to perform a harmful action would result in them losing their wealth.
- jjallen 9y ago
jraedisch 9y ago
cached version: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https://avc.com/2018/04/dapps/ http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https:/...
Dowwie 9y ago
How does Blockstack make money?
bourneliu 9y ago
visit the real data of dapps http://dappinsight.com http://dappinsight.com
bourneliu 9y ago
know the real data of dapps https://dappinsight.com https://dappinsight.com
- AngelloPozo 9y ago
  Looks like I will have to submit HelloSugoi: https://tickets.hellosugoi.com https://tickets.hellosugoi.com
simias 9y ago
So after browsing through Blockstack's website and a few of these Dapps there's something I don't quite understand. Storing data into the blockchain itself is obviously extremely expensive so I wondered how they did that. Turns out that for most of these apps they either don't tell (as far as I can see) or have this exact same snippet of text in their FAQs: >By default, your data is stored in a dedicated Microsoft Azure Blob. But you can and should connect your Blockstack Browser to your own cloud storage solutions (preferably multiple). So... what's the idea here? I don't need ethereum to encrypt my data and upload them to various cloud storage services. Sounds to me like blockstack is an app framework like Google Play or the App Store, only you pay with ethereum instead of fiat and your data is encrypted locally before being uploaded. I mean that last bit is definitely a good thing but where's the famous "blockchain technology(c)(tm)" exactly?
- Geee 9y ago
  From the FAQ: Can Blockstack apps scale, given that Blockstack uses blockchains which don't scale that well? Yes. Blockstack only uses the blockchain for name registration. Everything else happens off-chain, so apps work just as fast as they do on the Web.
  - simias 9y ago
    Ah, thank you for confirming that, I didn't think about looking at Blockstack's FAQ itself. But then I reiterate my question: what does the blockchain enable here exactly? TFA says that it's "exciting for crypto[currencies]" but it just seems like a cloud computing framework that happens to use ethereum for purchases. Just to be clear I'm not saying it's useless, actually being able to host your own data anywhere you want and having "end-to-end" encryption sounds great, I just don't see the "blockchain is going to revolutionize the world" angle.
    - berberous 9y ago
      Part of the problem here is that we are still in the infrastructure phase of blockchain development, so most dapps still rely on multiple centralized services. But as the infrastructure develops that will shift. For example, (i) all of the blockchains are working on scaling, (ii) Sia, Filecoin and a few others are working on blockchain based storage systems, (iii) Maker Dai, Basecoin and others are working on a stable coin, (iv) 0x and others are working on decentralized exchanges without custodians, (v) many are working on making addressed and key management easier, (vi) distributed identity verification and 'user trust' systems are developing, etc. All of that will take time, but as systems develop, more complex and more truly distributed dapps will be enabled.
imartin2k 9y ago
Down. Damn, of all the people, I wouldn’t have expected that this happens to Fred.
sargun 9y ago
So, I might be an idiot. I investigated “Dapps” the other day, and I’m struggling to see the point of these. Yes, they use a blockchain to store their data, and their data manipulation logic (“contract”, or schema, and stored procedures as we’d call it in the RDBMS / Monolith days). The UI, and such is all run by some centralized entity. If the App needs cryptocurrency in order to work, you have to run your own wallet. If (1) I need to run my own “geth” daemon, and (2) some central authority’s ownership is reigns over the apps availability, I don’t see how this is better than the current world. Until there is a Coinbase-like experience to solve (1), I think it’ll be very difficult to get real market adoption. (2) to me strikes a whole set of problems — What’s the point of Dapps? I would think it’d be better if the UI and API was hosted on a blockchain, and there was some kind of UI (browser?) with an embedded wallet, and agent to be able to interact with contracts. I know some of this is in development, but is anyone close to the ability to run a Reddit-like site without the existence of some central authority, along with being economical to run?
- coralreef 9y ago
  We have embedded wallets in the browser with things like MetaMask, which lets you execute Ethereum transactions by clicking buttons, fetching data from the blockchain to display on the webpage, etc. Dapps are still evolving. Some offer utility from fulfilling niches that are vulnerable to centralized power; ie. a decentralized Youtube that won't take down your video. Some are safer/cheaper implementations: ie. Hexel (YC) a platform that lets people create/manage tokens, like if you wanted your community to be able to send/use tokens. A mistake is assuming you need to put everything on the blockchain, and a new product should be fully decentralized. But in most cases, you can still deliver utility by having only the important pieces on the blockchain.
  - ghthor 9y ago
    Metamask is quickly becoming one of the most interesting projects to me. It's so easy to spin up a site now and use metamask for identity and authorization. If you have API's that need to be protected from denial of service attacks, you just channel them through a smart contract and make the user's pay the gas, no more need to protect your backends. The blockchain just becomes a source of truth and a protection against DDoS attacks. Past that, all other "transactions" can be done off chain. Future is exciting!
homakov 9y ago
True dapps dont exist yet. Now they all rely on some authority or served as a website
angilly 9y ago
`Error establishing a database connection` So is the joke that is this wouldn't happen if their blog was hosted on a dapp?
hudon 9y ago
> The bottom line for me is that we are finally seeing some useful decentralized applications being built for consumers on these blockchains. I don't know if the word "decentralized" should be used so merrily. Research was published recently [0] showing that the blockchain protocol requires a central authority to prevent coordination failures and externalities. Maybe these "useful decentralized applications" should come with a caution sign to the consumers: "product will not only be slower and more expensive than the centralized alternative, but there is also risk of coordination failure and double-spends". [0] https://www.tse-fr.eu/publications/blockchain-folk-theorem https://www.tse-fr.eu/publications/blockchain-folk-theorem
- danvoell 9y ago
  I saw the exact same line and I wanted to take out the word "useful". Don't get me wrong, I am as excited about Dapps as the next person, but I have not seen use cases that solve existing problems.
- lukifer 9y ago
  The same tension applies to a hypothetical mesh-network Internet, compared to the telco-backbone Internet: good for freedom and autonomy, bad for usability and performance. Alas, consumers tend to vote with their dollar for the latter. The "siren server" problem described by Jaron Lanier in "Who Owns The Future?" is a wicked problem when it comes to marketplace traction. In the case of both mesh networks and dapps, I think the greatest potential is in the developing world, where centralized infrastructure is absent or inadequate.
- jjallen 9y ago
  What is the "blockchain protocol"? I think we really need to pick A blockchain and criticize it specifically. And with applications: some will be more expensive, some won't be. Ethereum developers are already exploring ways for dapps to pay for gas instead of users (searching for link).
  - hudon 9y ago
    They define what blockchain is in the first two sections of the paper. Their model of the blockchain applies to both Bitcoin and Ethereum, for example, and seems general enough to apply to most networks people today refer to as "blockchain".
subbz 9y ago
Basically that's centralizing the decentralization. Am I right?
pg_bot 9y ago
Fred may as well be describing the turboencabulator[0]. I get that VCs should swing for the fences, but this seems like they are totally ignoring first principles when it comes to cryptocurrency/blockchain apps. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac7G7xOG2Ag https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac7G7xOG2Ag
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
natch 9y ago
This is the guy who supports back doors for encryption. Proceed with caution. and there's this: >Error establishing a database connection
apo 9y ago
Error establishing a database connection There's a Dapp for that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterPlanetary_File_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterPlanetary_File_System Interesting points: - there is no token, and so IPFS isn't as sexy as some of the stuff running on Ethereum - there may be no role to be played by VCs in advancing IPFS. There's a lot of innovation going on that ticks both boxes. I'm curious to see how venture funding will adapt (or not).
- amasad 9y ago
  IPFS has a token called filecoin and has a whole slew of VCs invested in it.
  - diggan 9y ago
    It's important to get the relationship between IPFS and Filecoin correct. Saying "IPFS has a token called Filecoin" is not true, as IPFS works (today, right now) without Filecoin, which has not been built yet. Filecoin is simply a way to store things in exchange for FIL (or vice-versa). Filecoin does depend on IPFS, but IPFS is a standalone project and does not require Filecoin to be useful. Disclaimer: I work for Protocol Labs, specifically on the IPFS project

Dapps

114 points by petethomas 9y ago

stuartaxelowen 9y ago

Page appears to be down from Tokyo.

devilmoon 9y ago

"Error establishing a database connection"

paulgb 9y ago
If only he used a dapp as the database backend, we'd be able to read the post! /s

ssuva 9y ago

Link appears to be down - try here: https://avc.com/ https://avc.com/

ythn 9y ago

In my day we called "decentralized apps" simply "programs".

codetrotter 9y ago
What makes dapps "special" (i.e. why we have a separate name for them) is that they utilize a blockchain in one way or another. For example for storage or transfer of data.
- tree_of_item 9y ago
  I think the point is that's not actually an interesting feature. The programs use an over-hyped database hoping to siphon off a bit of the hype...did we have a separate name for programs using NoSQL too?
  - jjallen 9y ago
    Yes, blockchains _have_ been overhyped thus far. But there is some promise to having distributed control over a database. For instance, you can build a company with [token|share]holders that no one controls -- a true cooperative. (full disclosure I work on this problem)
  - maxencecornet 9y ago
    >have a separate name for programs using NoSQL too? Yeah, horrible legacy projects that are a pain in the ass to maintain Source: I am working on a legacy API based on a noSQL database with a very dumb design (because the data was relational of course) in a very large company
    - ythn 9y ago
      > Yeah, horrible legacy projects that are a pain in the ass to maintain How can a "legacy" project be using noSQL? In my company, "legacy" projects are projects that have been around for 10+ years. MongoDB hasn't even been out a full 10 years, yet...
      - maxencecornet 9y ago
        >How can a "legacy" project be using noSQL? A project doesn't need to be 10+ years old to be legacy. This API is 3y old, and was the first iteration, the v1, of the company's digital asset management API, it's only maintained for a few teams around the world, whereas the v2 is well crafted and has a way more logical datamodel Legacy != old
        ythn 9y ago
        It's just weird when I read stuff like "Yeah, I've had to do a bunch of maintenance on our legacy webpack/Angular 2 system" because in my mind webpack and Angular 2 are still very recent technologies, just not recent compared to webpack 2/Angular 5
  - andysomniac 9y ago

i04n 9y ago

One project I really like is Streamr. It looks promising. Monetizing realtime data on top of ethereum. It's great to see projects on top of ethereum creating real value.

jabgrabdthrow 9y ago
Do you own Streamr coins?
- i04n 9y ago
  No, that would be a sin. Fred Wilson doesn't own ethereum either.
weego 9y ago
There's no value here! Even their own examples are so tenuous it's bizarre to me that anyone could post that with no sense of shame. 'what if what people know for free today would be wrapped up in an insane network of constantly negotiating prices for that same information'
- i04n 9y ago
  I respect your point of view. I like the project as i like Golem. They are trying to build decentralized cloud services on top of an existing blockchain. Hacker news is not read by idiots, so please don't accuse me of trying to deceive readers. The average reader here is quite smart, they don't need your defense.
  - weego 9y ago
    I was just counter pointing your opinion, I absolutely don't think you were actively deceiving anyone.

htormey 9y ago

So what Dapps does anyone here use apart from decentralized exchanges and crypto kitties? One I came across recently that looks promising is joy stream: http://joystream.co http://joystream.co Joy stream appears to be a service which rewards people for hosting torrents. I could see this being used by a lot of people. Are their any services that provide usage figures for any of these Dapps? I’d be curious to know how much they are used as I think Dapp usage is a good bellwether for utility token valuation. I really want to see crypto currency move beyond just being used for speculation.

RexetBlell 9y ago
The Dai stable coin. Many different smart contracts are constantly working together to keep the token worth very close to 1 USD: https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/dai/ https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/dai/
- sanderjd 9y ago
  Why is that good?
  - htormey 9y ago
    I assume because it allows you to trade in and out from crypto positions to something that tracks fiat. This of course assumes that this coin can actually hold its value in the event of a market crash. I also assume it’s not backed by real dollars held in a bank but some kind of basket of other cryptoassets right?
    - RexetBlell 9y ago
      No it is not backed by real dollars in a central location. It's a kind of a derivative. The way it works is very interesting. Recently Andreessen Horowitz and others invested 12M into the project.
    - mattnguyen 9y ago
      It's currently backed by ETH but is moving towards multi-collateral assets. Today, they announced a partnership with Omisego [1], with one goal to allow OMG to be used as a type of collateral. There's also chatter about using DIGIX, which is another stablecoin pegged to the price of gold. The mechanism by which they maintain stability is quite fascinating. From the whitepaper [2]: > The Dai Target Price is used to determine the collateral-to-debt ratio of a CDP, and thus the Target Price represents the price at which Dai is backed by collateral in the long term. The Target Price is continuously adjusted according to the current Target Rate. Automatic Target Rate adjustments ensure that the Dai market price remains stabilized around the Target Price in the short term. > When the market price of Dai is below the Target Price, the Target Rate increases. This causes the Target Price to increase at a higher rate, causing generation of Dai to become more expensive. This leads to CDP users covering their CDPs and leaving the ecosystem, causing the outstanding supply of Dai to decrease. At the same time, the increased Target Rate causes the capital gains from holding Dai to increase, leading to a corresponding increase in Dai demand. This combination of reduced supply and increased demand causes the Dai market price to increase, pushing it up towards the Target Price. [1] https://medium.com/makerdao/makerdao-and-omisego-announcing-dai-and-omg-collaborations-23600a080046 https://medium.com/makerdao/makerdao-and-omisego-announcing-... [2] https://github.com/makerdao/docs/blob/master/Dai.md#target-price-target-rate-and-the-sensitivity-parameter https://github.com/makerdao/docs/blob/master/Dai.md#target-p...

sancha_ 9y ago

Can someone explain to me why I should pay to use the dapp Twitter clone?

jabgrabdthrow 9y ago
You definitely shouldn't!
- forcer 9y ago
  If the price is meaningless amount I would actually be more comfortable paying than being a "product" that is being sold. Especially if there is no friction in paying and apps would subtract little amounts of cryptocurrency and I could review from time to time if all is in check
RexetBlell 9y ago
Censorship resistance. Twitter could delete your account (or some of your tweets) if they wanted to. They could also prevent your tweets appearing in other people's feeds. And they have done this to some controversial figures. Basically a Dapp is a more neutral platform that costs money. Probably not worth the cost for the average person though.
lifty 9y ago
One reason is to move from being the product to being a user, so that your attention is not sold to the highest bidder and your behaviour manipulated in such a way that it produces the highest value. Of course, paying with your attention is a valid way of paying for things as long as the implications are clear. edit: spelling mistakes
- paulgb 9y ago
  IMO, federation is a better model of this. With Mastodon, sure somebody is still paying server costs, but there is no unavoidable fee for the software/service and it has the same censorship-resistent properties. (I'd like to see signed messages in Mastodon but that's not a problem inherent to a federated model)

gammacrawler 9y ago

crypto should not mean cryptocurrency it should mean cryptography

laurentoget 9y ago
And distributed should mean distributed, not 'using a blockchain'.
- beepboopah 9y ago
  Agreed
zodiac 9y ago
No, crypto should mean cryptosporidium, a microscopic parasite that causes diarrhea. Even the US CDC seems to agree in https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/crypto/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/crypto/index.html. (with credits to https://twitter.com/musalbas/status/973600356377808896 https://twitter.com/musalbas/status/973600356377808896)

rco8786 9y ago

> it sure feels like 2018 is the year we start getting decentralized applications (Dapps) we can use. does it, though?

jjallen 9y ago
Yes, it does to me: 0) Augur, decentralized prediction markets and a very early ICO has reached the bug bounty phase, getting much closer to launch (https://medium.com/@AugurProject/announcing-the-augur-bug-bounty-program-36034da9a4cf https://medium.com/@AugurProject/announcing-the-augur-bug-bo...) 1) Golem, another early ICO has launched (https://www.coindesk.com/golem-arrives-one-ethereums-ambitious-apps-finally-live/ https://www.coindesk.com/golem-arrives-one-ethereums-ambitio...) 2) Distense, a decentralized code-cooperative with be running on the Ethereum mainnet in a few weeks (disclosure: my project) (https://disten.se https://disten.se) 3) 550 more live here: https://www.stateofthedapps.com/ https://www.stateofthedapps.com/
- davidivadavid 9y ago
  So they're close to launching or just launched. Any evidence suggesting they're not going to crash and burn in the short term?
  - jjallen 9y ago
    Well, yes, actually. Augur has undergone multiple security audits. https://medium.com/@AugurProject/augur-core-security-audit-report-cd6b4060ccf3 https://medium.com/@AugurProject/augur-core-security-audit-r...

timvdalen 9y ago

I'm getting a database connection error, which seems ironic given the subject of the post.

chvid 9y ago

"Error establishing a database connection" Is that irony?

common_ 9y ago

So much of VC funding is just about being in the right place at the right time. A lot of these guys seem like geniuses because of winning bets, but that's because nobody talks about their flops. It's entertaining watching all of the VCs who have made a major bet on crypto, who are now doubling down on what looks more like an overheated casino losing steam. Fred Wilson might end up watching the tide go out on this one. Maybe people will finally remember that he was part of Twitter's clueless board, the one that didn't think it was important to buy Instagram?

StavrosK 9y ago
Maybe it wasn't important at the time. Instagram only became wildly popular after they introduced stories, which they didn't have at the time, did they?
- rrdharan 9y ago
  Instagram passed Twitter's DAU count well before the introduction of stories. https://www.yahoo.com/news/instagram-hits-300-million-users-passes-twitter-211203097.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/instagram-hits-300-million-users-... Stories is what they introduced to kill Snapchat's growth.
  - amasad 9y ago
    I think OP's larger point stands -- it might've played our differently had Twitter acquired instagram. Maybe they would've done what they did with Vine.
taylorwc 9y ago
This comment could benefit from a little more research. Sure, being a successful venture investor is about being in the right place at the right time, but USV is one of the best out there. Fred Wilson has written extensively about his flops and misses (they passed repeatedly on Airbnb for example), and has also written extensively about the dynamics of investing across risky-enough ideas that there are a lot of failures in a successful portfolio. Sure, Twitter has made a lot of ridiculous decisions, but as an early-stage investment, it returned the fund.

fiatjaf 9y ago

Not exactly a Dapp, but to me the first killer cryptocurrency use case is/will be Althea: https://altheamesh.com/ https://altheamesh.com/, incentivized mesh-networking and internet provider services with micropayments.

jjallen 9y ago
Can't wait to support Althea Mesh some more in the future! We don't live in a great place right now with much human-density at all. If we ever live in a city though I will be the first to put up a system that can run Althea Mesh. Anything to put a tiny dent in the last-mile providers.
adangert 9y ago
Hmm, I think one thing people forget, is that most of the time benevolent centralization, and revolution to another centralization when necessary is more valuable to consumers, than always on decentralization.
- fiatjaf 9y ago
  I don't know how that comment applies to Althea.

keeptrying 9y ago

The big elephant in his post is the fact that you need to pay (ie buy ETH) to start using dapps. That’s a big stumbling psychological stumbling block that the “regular” internet doesn’t have. And I think that fact will shape whether any of us or the regular public ever launch a dapp. There will be a small set of services I believe which will cross this threshold. Not sure if it will be a large number or not.

RexetBlell 9y ago
In the future it will be possible to use Ethereum Dapps even if you don't have any ETH. The way it works now is that ETH is needed in order to pay for gas. However, it will be possible for the contract to pay for gas in the future. Developers would be able to add some ETH to their contract, so that it is free to use (or some parts of it are free) if they wanted to.
dereg 9y ago
The whole concept of gas is user hostile and is a huge setback to broad adoption.
- atomical 9y ago
  It will eventually be automatically calculated. It currently is in some apps.
- jjallen 9y ago
  It adds an extra hurdle to developing dapps as well. So many users in gitter channels I frequent run into problems with gas. But one thing is amazing is that once your dapp is deployed your backend is fully permanent and replicated 19,000 times [0] (which is both super good and super bad at the same time - no bug fixes in prod). [0] https://www.ethernodes.org/network/1/nodes https://www.ethernodes.org/network/1/nodes
- simias 9y ago
  Isn't it integral to the way these dapps work however? Is there an other way to achieve the same results? After all eventually somebody has to pay the bill for there computations. It seems to me that the big problem of dapps is not so much the fact that you need to pay to deploy them but that you have to pay so much to do anything meaningful. The system is extremely expensive compared to regular "not-trustless" distributed/cloud computing offerings out there. For instance while browsing through the blockstack website I saw that the first such application was a "docs suite" (à la office/google docs) called "graphite": https://www.graphitedocs.com https://www.graphitedocs.com That seemed interesting but my first thought was "man, if they store the files in the blockchain that must be absurdly expensive to use". They probably thought the same so, according to the FAQ at https://www.graphitedocs.com/faq https://www.graphitedocs.com/faq : >By default, your data is stored in a dedicated Microsoft Azure Blob. But you can and should connect your Blockstack Browser to your own cloud storage solutions (preferably multiple). Oh. So that makes sense but doesn't that destroy the whole point of it? What if I decide to, say, use OpenOffice on my computer, encrypt the files using GnuPG and then upload them to dropbox, spideroak and some AWS bucket, wouldn't that effectively grant me the same privacy and control over my data? I'm going to sound like a naysayer but it just looks like yet an other example of using blockchain for the sake of saying that you use the blockchain. But of course it's just one dapp out of many. Let's see the next one, "stealthy": https://www.stealthy.im/ https://www.stealthy.im/ It's a "A secure decentralized communication platform". Now storing small text messages in the blockchain would still be very expensive but it might be acceptable, especially if you worry a lot about censorship or your message remaining available "forever". >By default, your data is stored in a dedicated Microsoft Azure Blob. But you can and should connect your Blockstack Browser to your own cloud storage solutions (preferably multiple). Oh. Nevermind then.

thisisit 9y ago

Sure Dapps might be an interesting concept but let's not pretend it is free from manipulation. Miners are the gatekeepers to the system. F2Pool is one of the biggest pools in Ethereum. It was alleged that they manipulated the Status ICO: https://themerkle.com/f2pool-allegedly-prevented-users-from-investing-in-status-ico/ https://themerkle.com/f2pool-allegedly-prevented-users-from-... They controlled 26.6% of the total Ethereum hashing power. So, lets say this twitter clone - Peepeth takes off. And then there is someone who wants to post some stuff against F2pool. What is stopping F2pool from manipulating the feed? You might say other miners controlling 75% of the hashrate will pick it up. Sure, you might be correct. But what if the post shits on every other mining pool out there? What happens then? What if the post is time sensitive? Decentralized apps can only go so far considering there has to be a record for the system to work. And if record keepers manipulate the system it will fail. The question becomes then: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

splintercell 9y ago
> And then there is someone who wants to post some stuff against F2pool. What is stopping F2pool from manipulating the feed? It's the difference between 'unstable equilibrium' vs 'stable equilibrium'. The power of a centralized entity on their service, like twitter on a feed is a stable equilibrium, they can modify something and not face too many repercussions (like when we see what happened with Wells Fargo scandal). On the other hand, the power of a major player in a decentralized setup is an 'unstable equilibrium', if you modify something into your favor, your power goes away really fast. And cryptocurrency networks have shown that they are extremely sensitive towards any changes or abuse of power made by a major player. It also makes a lot of sense from game theoretic perspective. The hard fork made by the Ethereum community was such an example, it was so contentious that even though they succeeded, they are very resistant towards any such changes in future. With Proof of Stake, the 'stability' of unstable equilibrium of F2Pool (presuming F2Pool is a large staking pool at that point) becomes even more unstable. In PoW if F2Pool performs a harmful action, then any attempts to undo that harmful action does not harm F2Pool, they just neutralize their attempt. Whereas in PoS consensus, any attempts by F2Pool to perform a harmful action would result in them losing their wealth.
jjallen 9y ago

jraedisch 9y ago

cached version: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https://avc.com/2018/04/dapps/ http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https:/...

Dowwie 9y ago

How does Blockstack make money?

bourneliu 9y ago

visit the real data of dapps http://dappinsight.com http://dappinsight.com

bourneliu 9y ago

know the real data of dapps https://dappinsight.com https://dappinsight.com

AngelloPozo 9y ago
Looks like I will have to submit HelloSugoi: https://tickets.hellosugoi.com https://tickets.hellosugoi.com

simias 9y ago

So after browsing through Blockstack's website and a few of these Dapps there's something I don't quite understand. Storing data into the blockchain itself is obviously extremely expensive so I wondered how they did that. Turns out that for most of these apps they either don't tell (as far as I can see) or have this exact same snippet of text in their FAQs: >By default, your data is stored in a dedicated Microsoft Azure Blob. But you can and should connect your Blockstack Browser to your own cloud storage solutions (preferably multiple). So... what's the idea here? I don't need ethereum to encrypt my data and upload them to various cloud storage services. Sounds to me like blockstack is an app framework like Google Play or the App Store, only you pay with ethereum instead of fiat and your data is encrypted locally before being uploaded. I mean that last bit is definitely a good thing but where's the famous "blockchain technology(c)(tm)" exactly?

Geee 9y ago
From the FAQ: Can Blockstack apps scale, given that Blockstack uses blockchains which don't scale that well? Yes. Blockstack only uses the blockchain for name registration. Everything else happens off-chain, so apps work just as fast as they do on the Web.
- simias 9y ago
  Ah, thank you for confirming that, I didn't think about looking at Blockstack's FAQ itself. But then I reiterate my question: what does the blockchain enable here exactly? TFA says that it's "exciting for crypto[currencies]" but it just seems like a cloud computing framework that happens to use ethereum for purchases. Just to be clear I'm not saying it's useless, actually being able to host your own data anywhere you want and having "end-to-end" encryption sounds great, I just don't see the "blockchain is going to revolutionize the world" angle.
  - berberous 9y ago
    Part of the problem here is that we are still in the infrastructure phase of blockchain development, so most dapps still rely on multiple centralized services. But as the infrastructure develops that will shift. For example, (i) all of the blockchains are working on scaling, (ii) Sia, Filecoin and a few others are working on blockchain based storage systems, (iii) Maker Dai, Basecoin and others are working on a stable coin, (iv) 0x and others are working on decentralized exchanges without custodians, (v) many are working on making addressed and key management easier, (vi) distributed identity verification and 'user trust' systems are developing, etc. All of that will take time, but as systems develop, more complex and more truly distributed dapps will be enabled.

imartin2k 9y ago

Down. Damn, of all the people, I wouldn’t have expected that this happens to Fred.

sargun 9y ago

So, I might be an idiot. I investigated “Dapps” the other day, and I’m struggling to see the point of these. Yes, they use a blockchain to store their data, and their data manipulation logic (“contract”, or schema, and stored procedures as we’d call it in the RDBMS / Monolith days). The UI, and such is all run by some centralized entity. If the App needs cryptocurrency in order to work, you have to run your own wallet. If (1) I need to run my own “geth” daemon, and (2) some central authority’s ownership is reigns over the apps availability, I don’t see how this is better than the current world. Until there is a Coinbase-like experience to solve (1), I think it’ll be very difficult to get real market adoption. (2) to me strikes a whole set of problems — What’s the point of Dapps? I would think it’d be better if the UI and API was hosted on a blockchain, and there was some kind of UI (browser?) with an embedded wallet, and agent to be able to interact with contracts. I know some of this is in development, but is anyone close to the ability to run a Reddit-like site without the existence of some central authority, along with being economical to run?

coralreef 9y ago
We have embedded wallets in the browser with things like MetaMask, which lets you execute Ethereum transactions by clicking buttons, fetching data from the blockchain to display on the webpage, etc. Dapps are still evolving. Some offer utility from fulfilling niches that are vulnerable to centralized power; ie. a decentralized Youtube that won't take down your video. Some are safer/cheaper implementations: ie. Hexel (YC) a platform that lets people create/manage tokens, like if you wanted your community to be able to send/use tokens. A mistake is assuming you need to put everything on the blockchain, and a new product should be fully decentralized. But in most cases, you can still deliver utility by having only the important pieces on the blockchain.
- ghthor 9y ago
  Metamask is quickly becoming one of the most interesting projects to me. It's so easy to spin up a site now and use metamask for identity and authorization. If you have API's that need to be protected from denial of service attacks, you just channel them through a smart contract and make the user's pay the gas, no more need to protect your backends. The blockchain just becomes a source of truth and a protection against DDoS attacks. Past that, all other "transactions" can be done off chain. Future is exciting!

homakov 9y ago

True dapps dont exist yet. Now they all rely on some authority or served as a website

angilly 9y ago

`Error establishing a database connection` So is the joke that is this wouldn't happen if their blog was hosted on a dapp?

hudon 9y ago

> The bottom line for me is that we are finally seeing some useful decentralized applications being built for consumers on these blockchains. I don't know if the word "decentralized" should be used so merrily. Research was published recently [0] showing that the blockchain protocol requires a central authority to prevent coordination failures and externalities. Maybe these "useful decentralized applications" should come with a caution sign to the consumers: "product will not only be slower and more expensive than the centralized alternative, but there is also risk of coordination failure and double-spends". [0] https://www.tse-fr.eu/publications/blockchain-folk-theorem https://www.tse-fr.eu/publications/blockchain-folk-theorem

danvoell 9y ago
I saw the exact same line and I wanted to take out the word "useful". Don't get me wrong, I am as excited about Dapps as the next person, but I have not seen use cases that solve existing problems.
lukifer 9y ago
The same tension applies to a hypothetical mesh-network Internet, compared to the telco-backbone Internet: good for freedom and autonomy, bad for usability and performance. Alas, consumers tend to vote with their dollar for the latter. The "siren server" problem described by Jaron Lanier in "Who Owns The Future?" is a wicked problem when it comes to marketplace traction. In the case of both mesh networks and dapps, I think the greatest potential is in the developing world, where centralized infrastructure is absent or inadequate.
jjallen 9y ago
What is the "blockchain protocol"? I think we really need to pick A blockchain and criticize it specifically. And with applications: some will be more expensive, some won't be. Ethereum developers are already exploring ways for dapps to pay for gas instead of users (searching for link).
- hudon 9y ago
  They define what blockchain is in the first two sections of the paper. Their model of the blockchain applies to both Bitcoin and Ethereum, for example, and seems general enough to apply to most networks people today refer to as "blockchain".

subbz 9y ago

Basically that's centralizing the decentralization. Am I right?

pg_bot 9y ago

Fred may as well be describing the turboencabulator[0]. I get that VCs should swing for the fences, but this seems like they are totally ignoring first principles when it comes to cryptocurrency/blockchain apps. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac7G7xOG2Ag https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac7G7xOG2Ag

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

natch 9y ago

This is the guy who supports back doors for encryption. Proceed with caution. and there's this: >Error establishing a database connection

apo 9y ago

Error establishing a database connection There's a Dapp for that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterPlanetary_File_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterPlanetary_File_System Interesting points: - there is no token, and so IPFS isn't as sexy as some of the stuff running on Ethereum - there may be no role to be played by VCs in advancing IPFS. There's a lot of innovation going on that ticks both boxes. I'm curious to see how venture funding will adapt (or not).

amasad 9y ago
IPFS has a token called filecoin and has a whole slew of VCs invested in it.
- diggan 9y ago
  It's important to get the relationship between IPFS and Filecoin correct. Saying "IPFS has a token called Filecoin" is not true, as IPFS works (today, right now) without Filecoin, which has not been built yet. Filecoin is simply a way to store things in exchange for FIL (or vice-versa). Filecoin does depend on IPFS, but IPFS is a standalone project and does not require Filecoin to be useful. Disclaimer: I work for Protocol Labs, specifically on the IPFS project