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This post made me want to re-read "You Are Not a Gadget." One of Lanier's points in that book is that technology can both augment expression and bound it. The L

This post made me want to re-read "You Are Not a Gadget." One of Lanier's points in that book is that technology can both augment expression and bound it. The Like Button is a classic example of bounding because it reduces your thoughts and feelings about a piece of content to a thumbs up, whereas a simple textbox would let you note whatever you want about the content (text is also harder to monetize and analyze and control). I personally have been noticing more and more how technology and algorithms seem to bounding expression online and off, particularly around content creation, but also with influencers and personal branding and so on. It feels like 90% of the shit being pumped out is super amplified to draw notice or for signaling, and while this is not a new phenomenon of course, it still feels weird to see ordinary people at restaurants taking pictures of their food, or sucking up to some corporation online for the chance to win a prize I feel this pressure too. The pressure to get noticed. To tailor content to what will rack of the most views. To post that tweet that will make me look like a smart, funny guy who has something valuable to say and oh by the way you should totally follow me. And I hate it. And I try not to care about numbers. But it still feels really shitty when something you spent a month working on and genuinely find really cool gets a total of ten views while a picture of a goat in a sweater just when viral. And what if the audience is right? There has to be something better. I hope that we can grow beyond changing ourselves to fit the algorithm, and re-focus on using technology to create new ways of sharing and expressing and relating to each other. One fun example of this that Lanier gave: creating technology that would let people communicate like cuttlefish (specifically the shifting skin colors and textures). That optimistic vision still feels as radical and fresh today as it did when I first read the book in 2010. I just hope it's not too late

__s 9y ago
Quality over quantity. Seek ten views that let you engage with another human being rather than however many views which will never let you really make contact
- voltagex_ 9y ago
  Yeah but how many views do you need to put food on the table?
  - spacehome 9y ago
    Zero?
  - coldtea 9y ago
    To complete the parent's advice: "...and have a job that doesn't depend on whoring for views".
    - AstralStorm 9y ago
      Apparently now every job that is not directly manufacturing optimizes for "engagement" of the customer base... or "marketability". You can ignore prime top level directives only for so long.
      - taneq 9y ago
        It's not like manufacturing companies don't need marketing. Any commercial entity needs to do those same things.
fiatpandas 9y ago
>it still feels weird to see ordinary people For me this is where these YT tropes get interesting. When you get past the thumbnails of the mega channels with multiple full time employees who are obviously doing something very baity and strategic, you’re left with the ordinary channels who mimic these tropes likely without deep consideration or even consciousness. It’s just more of a will to survive kind of thing, and thus an entire ecosystem shapes its own desires by way of unknowingly optimizing for an algorithm which itself is based on honing in on community trends.
- datalus 9y ago
  that sounds a lot like a feedback loop.
  - TheOtherHobbes 9y ago
    Capitalism provides the feedback loop. The Internet enables it. Can we not design a better fitness function?
booleandilemma 9y ago
Nice comment, I have upvoted it.
- downer61 9y ago
  Alight, listen you! Quit horsing around, this is a very serious discussion.
et-al 9y ago
> The Like Button is a classic example of bounding because it reduces your thoughts and feelings about a piece of content to a thumbs up People do write replies, but I feel the conversation is much terse these days. I enjoy HN because in general the crowd here is more mature and willing to invest in an informative thoughtout reply instead of just witty one-liners for karma (which I'm glad people here downvote). But yeah, I wonder what if we took away the "likes". We had an internet and community without them before. PS Thanks for the book recommendation.
- jstandard 9y ago
  > People do write replies, but I feel the conversation is much terse these days. I'm not sure how recent that phenomenon actually is. I think it's more that the social tools where people congregate made it easier and even incentivize responses. A larger number of people with less to say will respond because these systems are designed to cultivate response.
ILikeConemowk 9y ago
>I hope that we can grow beyond changing ourselves to fit the algorithm I personally think you are in for a very rude awakening. This is exactly what people are trying not to do with Machine Learning. It is always, almost, about profiling you, about finding out who you are in order to offer you what you already know, to limit your horizon, to "tailor" your "experience" and the span of possibilities. As a very technical fellow told me: "when you read three political news in a row we set a badge, you are now politically minded." This, sadly, doesn't fit your yearning for us growing "beyond changing ourselves to fit the algorithm." My prediction is that it will get worst before it gets any better at all.
- mattbierner 9y ago
  Yes I think you are right. Just today for example, many people seemed encouraged when Zuckerberg said facebook would have AI to effectively and automatically block hate speech in 5-10 years. And while it's hard to be, "oh no think of the poor hate speech!" that tech is actually very scary when you start thinking about how much it can be abused. The first thing we'd probably do with cuttlefish suits anyways is stick ads all over them. Then the company that makes them would get acquired
  - ILikeConemowk 9y ago
    >oh no think of the poor hate speech This is an easy target. Whenever you get that argument you go all: "it's a bit unsettling that you find censor-happy human-out-of-the-loop algorimhms good, but I thank you for you honesty." Then you recall that you are a programmer: "you know what, I should definitely program an algorithm that censors all positive talk about censor-happy human-out-of-the-loop algorithms. Thanks for the idea."
    - terminado 9y ago
      Blind spots are bad news for situational awareness though. The corollary is 30 ton tractor trailer changing lanes on the highway, and concluding that there's no traffic because it would prefer not to see it. Censoring the rear view mirrors is a bad idea no matter how much you hate what you see in them.
jstandard 9y ago
> The Like Button is a classic example of bounding because it reduces your thoughts and feelings about a piece of content to a thumbs up This is an interesting thought. It does simplify expression, but in sum I don't think it's that much different than life before the like button. We press the like button all the time in real life. Giving thumbs up, a quick nod of the head, or clapping. From that standpoint, the like button is just the digital manifestation of how we showed engagement with "content". Where I see we run into problems is that a "like" has different meanings depending on the person and context. Unfortunately algorithms aren't able to fully understand these nuances yet, so we end up with the same stream of youtube videos in our feed or the same 5 songs in our pandora playlist. Which means on the backend we're stuck with a certain set of "almost-but-not-quite-right" labels in a system which will then make "almost-but-not-quite-right" decisions. Folks at the edges may get incorrectly lumped into the wrong group and, in milder cases, receive content they aren't interested in, in extreme cases, be flagged as a "potential terrorist". It's tough. I do think my life is generally better off with intelligent algos removing friction, aiding in discovery, and anticipating my needs. But to do so, those same algos need an almost infinite amount of info about me to be able to infer context and nuance.
- wadkar 9y ago
  > > The Like Button is a classic example of bounding because it reduces your thoughts and feelings about a piece of content to a thumbs up > We press the like button all the time in real life. Giving thumbs up, a quick nod of the head, or clapping. Oh no, I don't think real life expressions can be summed or approximated into a binary thumbs up vs no thumbs up (there's no thumbs down). For example, we express a lot more by how eagerly we raise our hands while giving a thumbs up, or how our eyes approve (or disapprove) while giving the quick nod, or how hard (or sarcastically mild) we clap. I think there is always an amount of uncertainty in real life expression that gets lost the moment we transform them into certain form.
  - jstandard 9y ago
    Agree! A lot of nuance can be lost in when converting to digital. My point is more about the way people use the like button has corresponding actions in "real life". A thumbs up can be used to convey a variety of emotions. Happiness, irony, and other meanings depending on culture. However on FB, the like button has an implied set of narrow usage. You use it to acknowledge, approve, like things. It's not as useful as in real-life because you can't as easily interpret context or add accompanying signals like a furrowed brow or a smile. The usage set is more narrow/different and I think most people recognize that when they give a thumbs up on FB vs. when they do so in real life.

__s 9y ago

Quality over quantity. Seek ten views that let you engage with another human being rather than however many views which will never let you really make contact

voltagex_ 9y ago
Yeah but how many views do you need to put food on the table?
- spacehome 9y ago
  Zero?
- coldtea 9y ago
  To complete the parent's advice: "...and have a job that doesn't depend on whoring for views".
  - AstralStorm 9y ago
    Apparently now every job that is not directly manufacturing optimizes for "engagement" of the customer base... or "marketability". You can ignore prime top level directives only for so long.
    - taneq 9y ago
      It's not like manufacturing companies don't need marketing. Any commercial entity needs to do those same things.

fiatpandas 9y ago

>it still feels weird to see ordinary people For me this is where these YT tropes get interesting. When you get past the thumbnails of the mega channels with multiple full time employees who are obviously doing something very baity and strategic, you’re left with the ordinary channels who mimic these tropes likely without deep consideration or even consciousness. It’s just more of a will to survive kind of thing, and thus an entire ecosystem shapes its own desires by way of unknowingly optimizing for an algorithm which itself is based on honing in on community trends.

datalus 9y ago
that sounds a lot like a feedback loop.
- TheOtherHobbes 9y ago
  Capitalism provides the feedback loop. The Internet enables it. Can we not design a better fitness function?

booleandilemma 9y ago

Nice comment, I have upvoted it.

downer61 9y ago
Alight, listen you! Quit horsing around, this is a very serious discussion.

et-al 9y ago

> The Like Button is a classic example of bounding because it reduces your thoughts and feelings about a piece of content to a thumbs up People do write replies, but I feel the conversation is much terse these days. I enjoy HN because in general the crowd here is more mature and willing to invest in an informative thoughtout reply instead of just witty one-liners for karma (which I'm glad people here downvote). But yeah, I wonder what if we took away the "likes". We had an internet and community without them before. PS Thanks for the book recommendation.

jstandard 9y ago
> People do write replies, but I feel the conversation is much terse these days. I'm not sure how recent that phenomenon actually is. I think it's more that the social tools where people congregate made it easier and even incentivize responses. A larger number of people with less to say will respond because these systems are designed to cultivate response.

ILikeConemowk 9y ago

>I hope that we can grow beyond changing ourselves to fit the algorithm I personally think you are in for a very rude awakening. This is exactly what people are trying not to do with Machine Learning. It is always, almost, about profiling you, about finding out who you are in order to offer you what you already know, to limit your horizon, to "tailor" your "experience" and the span of possibilities. As a very technical fellow told me: "when you read three political news in a row we set a badge, you are now politically minded." This, sadly, doesn't fit your yearning for us growing "beyond changing ourselves to fit the algorithm." My prediction is that it will get worst before it gets any better at all.

mattbierner 9y ago
Yes I think you are right. Just today for example, many people seemed encouraged when Zuckerberg said facebook would have AI to effectively and automatically block hate speech in 5-10 years. And while it's hard to be, "oh no think of the poor hate speech!" that tech is actually very scary when you start thinking about how much it can be abused. The first thing we'd probably do with cuttlefish suits anyways is stick ads all over them. Then the company that makes them would get acquired
- ILikeConemowk 9y ago
  >oh no think of the poor hate speech This is an easy target. Whenever you get that argument you go all: "it's a bit unsettling that you find censor-happy human-out-of-the-loop algorimhms good, but I thank you for you honesty." Then you recall that you are a programmer: "you know what, I should definitely program an algorithm that censors all positive talk about censor-happy human-out-of-the-loop algorithms. Thanks for the idea."
  - terminado 9y ago
    Blind spots are bad news for situational awareness though. The corollary is 30 ton tractor trailer changing lanes on the highway, and concluding that there's no traffic because it would prefer not to see it. Censoring the rear view mirrors is a bad idea no matter how much you hate what you see in them.

jstandard 9y ago

> The Like Button is a classic example of bounding because it reduces your thoughts and feelings about a piece of content to a thumbs up This is an interesting thought. It does simplify expression, but in sum I don't think it's that much different than life before the like button. We press the like button all the time in real life. Giving thumbs up, a quick nod of the head, or clapping. From that standpoint, the like button is just the digital manifestation of how we showed engagement with "content". Where I see we run into problems is that a "like" has different meanings depending on the person and context. Unfortunately algorithms aren't able to fully understand these nuances yet, so we end up with the same stream of youtube videos in our feed or the same 5 songs in our pandora playlist. Which means on the backend we're stuck with a certain set of "almost-but-not-quite-right" labels in a system which will then make "almost-but-not-quite-right" decisions. Folks at the edges may get incorrectly lumped into the wrong group and, in milder cases, receive content they aren't interested in, in extreme cases, be flagged as a "potential terrorist". It's tough. I do think my life is generally better off with intelligent algos removing friction, aiding in discovery, and anticipating my needs. But to do so, those same algos need an almost infinite amount of info about me to be able to infer context and nuance.

wadkar 9y ago
> > The Like Button is a classic example of bounding because it reduces your thoughts and feelings about a piece of content to a thumbs up > We press the like button all the time in real life. Giving thumbs up, a quick nod of the head, or clapping. Oh no, I don't think real life expressions can be summed or approximated into a binary thumbs up vs no thumbs up (there's no thumbs down). For example, we express a lot more by how eagerly we raise our hands while giving a thumbs up, or how our eyes approve (or disapprove) while giving the quick nod, or how hard (or sarcastically mild) we clap. I think there is always an amount of uncertainty in real life expression that gets lost the moment we transform them into certain form.
- jstandard 9y ago
  Agree! A lot of nuance can be lost in when converting to digital. My point is more about the way people use the like button has corresponding actions in "real life". A thumbs up can be used to convey a variety of emotions. Happiness, irony, and other meanings depending on culture. However on FB, the like button has an implied set of narrow usage. You use it to acknowledge, approve, like things. It's not as useful as in real-life because you can't as easily interpret context or add accompanying signals like a furrowed brow or a smile. The usage set is more narrow/different and I think most people recognize that when they give a thumbs up on FB vs. when they do so in real life.