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But the reality is that is exactly what is happening when you delete a file. It sets a flag as deleted in the file system. The data reminds there until overwrit

But the reality is that is exactly what is happening when you delete a file. It sets a flag as deleted in the file system. The data reminds there until overwritten. Computers have worked this way since forever. Also if you look at the definition of delete it matches this. To remove by striking out or canceling, not to remove all remove all traces.

bithive123 9y ago
The point people are trying to make is that properly practiced law can't be circumvented by these kinds of arguments. If there was a requirement to do something with the data and it was not done then you failed, technical jargon and implementation details are irrelevant.
- Blahah 9y ago
  I really do not think this is accurate. I have been in a courtroom when a file was described as 'deleted' and then an expert witness 'recovered' the 'deleted' file, which was entered as evidence. Delete is a technical word that has a specfiic meaning. Unlike most language, technical terms are (to some degree) clearly defined and should not change over time or with common usage. Whether people misinterpret the word arbitrarily is not important when experts are being consulted - they use the word as defined. The word delete means what it means, and any expert giving testimony about it would use the same definition. It certainly doesn't mean removing information completely from existence with no possibility of it surviving in any way or ever being retrieved.
  - Silhouette 9y ago
    Delete is a technical word that has a specfiic meaning. Respectfully, if that were true, we wouldn't all be having this discussion.
    - Blahah 9y ago
      Respectfully, the fact that we're having this discussion means some participants aren't adhering to the technical definition. There's a meandering, geographically and socialogically heterogeneous definition that is non-technical. In court, I believe a technical expert would use the former, not the latter (unless specifically required to do otherwise).
      - Silhouette 9y ago
        What do you think that definition is? I've never seen a single, authoritative, technical definition of the term, nor anyone with the authority to write one.
      - DanBC 9y ago
        English courts don't like to give specific technical meanings to words. They prefer to use the everyday meaning as understood by the reasonable person. I understand this is perhaps a cultural difference to the US.
  - belorn 9y ago
    Recovering a deleted file is identical to the concept of recovering a shredded document. Its more about intent and purpose rather than result. A shredded document is intended to be destroyed, but its obvious that it can be recovered if you got all the pieces. If you however put the paper in the basement and simply pretend to have destroyed it then I can see how a court would object. Let think of an example where a government employee has a requirement to destroy documents and computer records as part of normal operations. Would marking the document as "destroyed" and then put in the basement be acceptable? Similarly, would marking the computer record in a database as "inaccessible" be enough? I personally doubt that the court would accept either method.
Silhouette 9y ago
But the reality is that is exactly what is happening when you delete a file. It sets a flag as deleted in the file system. Sure, but no-one is testifying before a senior government committee that such files were "deleted" in a context where deletion is clearly understood to mean making permanently irretrievable. If the committee called any IT expert to give evidence and asked if data had really been deleted under those conditions, surely no-one who understood the technicalities would say yes. Computers have worked this way since forever. A lot of things have been done "since forever" in the computer age. The fact that some of those things might not be good ideas and public awareness has finally reached the point where something might actually be done about it is rather the point here.
chopin 9y ago
But the file system overrides the (former) file content eventually. You don't have a guarantee you can retrieve the content anymore. You'd need to use forensic tools for that anyway. I think any jury can understand this. Setting a flag in a database column is a big difference, as the data never becomes purged eventually.

bithive123 9y ago

The point people are trying to make is that properly practiced law can't be circumvented by these kinds of arguments. If there was a requirement to do something with the data and it was not done then you failed, technical jargon and implementation details are irrelevant.

Blahah 9y ago
I really do not think this is accurate. I have been in a courtroom when a file was described as 'deleted' and then an expert witness 'recovered' the 'deleted' file, which was entered as evidence. Delete is a technical word that has a specfiic meaning. Unlike most language, technical terms are (to some degree) clearly defined and should not change over time or with common usage. Whether people misinterpret the word arbitrarily is not important when experts are being consulted - they use the word as defined. The word delete means what it means, and any expert giving testimony about it would use the same definition. It certainly doesn't mean removing information completely from existence with no possibility of it surviving in any way or ever being retrieved.
- Silhouette 9y ago
  Delete is a technical word that has a specfiic meaning. Respectfully, if that were true, we wouldn't all be having this discussion.
  - Blahah 9y ago
    Respectfully, the fact that we're having this discussion means some participants aren't adhering to the technical definition. There's a meandering, geographically and socialogically heterogeneous definition that is non-technical. In court, I believe a technical expert would use the former, not the latter (unless specifically required to do otherwise).
    - Silhouette 9y ago
      What do you think that definition is? I've never seen a single, authoritative, technical definition of the term, nor anyone with the authority to write one.
    - DanBC 9y ago
      English courts don't like to give specific technical meanings to words. They prefer to use the everyday meaning as understood by the reasonable person. I understand this is perhaps a cultural difference to the US.
- belorn 9y ago
  Recovering a deleted file is identical to the concept of recovering a shredded document. Its more about intent and purpose rather than result. A shredded document is intended to be destroyed, but its obvious that it can be recovered if you got all the pieces. If you however put the paper in the basement and simply pretend to have destroyed it then I can see how a court would object. Let think of an example where a government employee has a requirement to destroy documents and computer records as part of normal operations. Would marking the document as "destroyed" and then put in the basement be acceptable? Similarly, would marking the computer record in a database as "inaccessible" be enough? I personally doubt that the court would accept either method.

Silhouette 9y ago

But the reality is that is exactly what is happening when you delete a file. It sets a flag as deleted in the file system. Sure, but no-one is testifying before a senior government committee that such files were "deleted" in a context where deletion is clearly understood to mean making permanently irretrievable. If the committee called any IT expert to give evidence and asked if data had really been deleted under those conditions, surely no-one who understood the technicalities would say yes. Computers have worked this way since forever. A lot of things have been done "since forever" in the computer age. The fact that some of those things might not be good ideas and public awareness has finally reached the point where something might actually be done about it is rather the point here.

chopin 9y ago

But the file system overrides the (former) file content eventually. You don't have a guarantee you can retrieve the content anymore. You'd need to use forensic tools for that anyway. I think any jury can understand this. Setting a flag in a database column is a big difference, as the data never becomes purged eventually.