4 ms·
It is well worth reserving some things from being subsumed directly by the economic system. I don't understand the distinction ihsw2 is trying to make with the
by z0r 9y ago
It is well worth reserving some things from being subsumed directly by the economic system. I don't understand the distinction ihsw2 is trying to make with the repeated argument about removal of consent, but I would agree if they simply were arguing that human sex shouldn't be commodified.
- yters 9y agoEconomic and societal forces are making these women let men use their bodies. In form it looks different than traditional rape, but in function it is no different. Women are being forced to let complete strangers abuse their bodies in the most intimate ways possible.
- rosser 9y agoNot all of them. Some women (and some men!) consciously and specifically choose to engage in sex work. The way we're trying to "protect" the people being trafficked into sex work is putting them, and the ones who do it voluntarily, in even more danger. Legalizing and regulating sex work protects them all so much more, but entirely too many of us would rather moralize about others' choices than approach the problem with harm reduction in mind.
- orthecreedence 9y ago> harm reduction in mind. Yep. I'm seeing many, many comments about how prositution is bad. I'm not seeing any that suggest workable alternatives. Most seem to be socialist-leaning (attaching market incentive to sex is bad), but we don't have socialism, and sex workers need protection now. Ok, so whether or not we agree that prostitution is bad, what do we do about it? I think legalizing/regulating makes a lot more sex workers a lot safer. Those people were going to be doing sex work anyway, but now they have the state-level protections a plumber or a banker have. Once that's done, then we can argue the morality of it to death.
- yters 9y agoAre people more likely to do something that is safe or is dangerous? We can make similar arguments for all illegal activities. Why don't we make murder safer for the murderers? They're going to murder anyways, so we might as well keep one of the parties alive and healthy. Why don't we just give thieves all the free money they want? They are going to steal anyways, so we might as well make it more convenient for them. In short, why have rules with negative repercussions at all? People are going to do 'wrong' anyways, so let's instead of doing something negative to them, make it as positive an experience as possible.
- orthecreedence 9y agoI don't think comparing sex work to murder is warranted. Murder is almost universally agreed upon as being morally wrong. Sex work is not as universal. Also, murder generally involves a willing participant and a non-willing participant. Sex work, is generally two willing participants, especially if it's done with the protection of a state's legal system. I think the problem with prostitution is that people apply the moral platform of what happens in underground sex work to above-ground sex work. But so many things change once it becomes legal that it's not an effective comparison. My goal with sex work would be to vastly reduce the number of unwilling participants and offer protection for those who follow the law while engaging in it. I think "it makes me feel bad therefor should be illegal" is understandable, but not incredibly nuanced and ends up hurting many more people in the long run.
- yters 9y agoWhy is willingness the magic that makes it alright? Many actions are engaged in willingly that are not good. Suicide is the primary one that comes to mind.
- orthecreedence 9y agoI think someone should be able to kill themself if they want.
- yters 9y agoLet's imagine a world where prostitution is entirely legalized and regulated. We still have rampant STDs, unplanned pregnancies, the dehumanizing of women, etc. The field itself is inherently destructive to all participants.
- orthecreedence 9y agoRight. So we have what we have now, but sex workers, in general, are much safer. Seems like a win to me. It's fine if you don't like prostitution, but what is your practical proposed solution for erradicating it?
- yters 9y agoThere are plenty of alternatives. Provide these women with clear alternatives. Provide significant punishment for those who engage in prostitution, be it the users, the pimps, the prostitutes, the establishments, etc. In general, eradicate the culture of female objectification, primarily by eliminating porn. Encourage people to form committed families. Many, many, alternatives to making prostitution easier. As human beings, we don't encourage other human beings to continue destroying themselves, just because that course of action is easiest. We try to save them from their self destructive course. We do not enable self destruction.
- rosser 9y ago> The field itself is inherently destructive to all participants. This is the language of moralizing, not of problem solving. You aren't interested in making anything better; you're interested in making sure everyone knows how "bad" you think this thing is. The thing is: no-one's arguing there's badness here, just over what the bad and not-bad parts are. You aren't going to convince people that it's all bad, going about it the way you are, though.