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> Prostitution is abhorrent to the women's rights movement -- it is another tool of oppression. One of the core tenets of feminism is that women have a right t

> Prostitution is abhorrent to the women's rights movement -- it is another tool of oppression. One of the core tenets of feminism is that women have a right to do what they please with their own bodies. A lot of bad things come out of prostitution. That needs to be addressed and policed. Jailing the women practicing it to survive fixes nothing.

sudosteph 9y ago
Jailing the women who practice is not the only option here. The nordic model advocates that it's only the buyers who are penalized. Women are then given services that provide a path towards a different means of earning income. The idea is that by making it riskier for the buyer, the average John won't bother with looking for that type of service. The aim is to reduce demand for prostitution in general, which in turn should reduce the demand for trafficking for the purposes of prostitution. Studies do indeed show that countries with this model (Sweden) have less incidence of human trafficking than countries with legalization (Netherlands). There is a tradeoff though with that model. Mainly that the Johns who remain in the market are more likely to be dangerous. This is not a clear cut feminist issue though. Many feminists do indeed believe sex work as an industry is harmful to women, even if regulated for worker safety. There are feminists who are ex-sex workers that advocate this position.
- makomk 9y ago
  For some context, while Sweden doesn't criminalize women who sell sex, it does criminalize everyone around them - including landlords who knowingly rent to them, with the main defence being that they evicted their tenant as soon as legally possible after finding out. So sex workers in Sweden have gone to the police about being raped by clients, only to have the police tell their landlords to evict them. They don't report rape to the police anymore. (I think the other Nordic countries that adopted this model have the same issue.) A few years ago, Amnesty International found out about this and took a strong position against the Nordic model because of it. The response amongst feminist supporters of the Nordic model was not to disown this part of the Nordic model or try and change the law in Sweden; instead they launched a campaign against Amnesty International to try and shut them up. Its proponents might try and spin it as something that protects women in the industry and only affects johns, but pretty much all of them are fighting hard to strip those women of any police protection against rape and violence. Occasionally, you'll even find someone who openly admits that they want those women to be more at risk of rape because they hope it'll encourage them to give up a trade that they think is hurting other women, and no-one else in the supposedly feminist anti-sex-work movement seems to have a problem with this from what I've seen.
ihsw2 9y ago
Prostitution destroys the sexual autonomy of women by introducing economic incentives to performing sexual acts, this the opposite of sexual freedom.
- orthecreedence 9y ago
  So anybody with a job is a slave to economics? Isn't this just capitalism/free markets in general? Seems like you're saying women have more freedom by being told they cannot do something that elevates them economically. Women are still free to have non-paid sex with whomever they want. But if they choose to make money doing it as well, I believe that is another form of empowerment.
  - afejowj 9y ago
    It's not a choice if its the only option. The real shit argument is exactly that it's just "more capitalism" Morons be getting further if they advocated collectively for UBI + universal healthcare and not a bunch of customizations to the shit stew we're all eating. Adding a little seasoning for the preferences of group_x isn't really improving much
  - ihsw2 9y ago
    Consent is removed by economic force rather than physical force. Performing sexual acts is much more than plain physical labor like lawn maintenance.
    - excalibur 9y ago
      This is appalling. Have you ever done any manual labor more difficult than mowing the lawn? Work 12-hour days in a factory for a few years, then tell me you wouldn't rather get paid to have sex.
    - orthecreedence 9y ago
      So what's your solution? Sex robots? (I'm not kidding). If there are people willing to pay for sex, and people willing to have sex for money, how do you stop them from entering into this transaction, whether regulated or unregulated? I can see you are morally opposed to prostitution, but, like, what's your solution here? What, in your head, is the lesser of all evils that can be practically implemented and enforced?
afejowj 9y ago
If "a fuck for a buck" or "sex to survive" is their only option, it's not really "do what they please with their own bodies."

sudosteph 9y ago

Jailing the women who practice is not the only option here. The nordic model advocates that it's only the buyers who are penalized. Women are then given services that provide a path towards a different means of earning income. The idea is that by making it riskier for the buyer, the average John won't bother with looking for that type of service. The aim is to reduce demand for prostitution in general, which in turn should reduce the demand for trafficking for the purposes of prostitution. Studies do indeed show that countries with this model (Sweden) have less incidence of human trafficking than countries with legalization (Netherlands). There is a tradeoff though with that model. Mainly that the Johns who remain in the market are more likely to be dangerous. This is not a clear cut feminist issue though. Many feminists do indeed believe sex work as an industry is harmful to women, even if regulated for worker safety. There are feminists who are ex-sex workers that advocate this position.

makomk 9y ago
For some context, while Sweden doesn't criminalize women who sell sex, it does criminalize everyone around them - including landlords who knowingly rent to them, with the main defence being that they evicted their tenant as soon as legally possible after finding out. So sex workers in Sweden have gone to the police about being raped by clients, only to have the police tell their landlords to evict them. They don't report rape to the police anymore. (I think the other Nordic countries that adopted this model have the same issue.) A few years ago, Amnesty International found out about this and took a strong position against the Nordic model because of it. The response amongst feminist supporters of the Nordic model was not to disown this part of the Nordic model or try and change the law in Sweden; instead they launched a campaign against Amnesty International to try and shut them up. Its proponents might try and spin it as something that protects women in the industry and only affects johns, but pretty much all of them are fighting hard to strip those women of any police protection against rape and violence. Occasionally, you'll even find someone who openly admits that they want those women to be more at risk of rape because they hope it'll encourage them to give up a trade that they think is hurting other women, and no-one else in the supposedly feminist anti-sex-work movement seems to have a problem with this from what I've seen.

ihsw2 9y ago

Prostitution destroys the sexual autonomy of women by introducing economic incentives to performing sexual acts, this the opposite of sexual freedom.

orthecreedence 9y ago
So anybody with a job is a slave to economics? Isn't this just capitalism/free markets in general? Seems like you're saying women have more freedom by being told they cannot do something that elevates them economically. Women are still free to have non-paid sex with whomever they want. But if they choose to make money doing it as well, I believe that is another form of empowerment.
- afejowj 9y ago
  It's not a choice if its the only option. The real shit argument is exactly that it's just "more capitalism" Morons be getting further if they advocated collectively for UBI + universal healthcare and not a bunch of customizations to the shit stew we're all eating. Adding a little seasoning for the preferences of group_x isn't really improving much
- ihsw2 9y ago
  Consent is removed by economic force rather than physical force. Performing sexual acts is much more than plain physical labor like lawn maintenance.
  - excalibur 9y ago
    This is appalling. Have you ever done any manual labor more difficult than mowing the lawn? Work 12-hour days in a factory for a few years, then tell me you wouldn't rather get paid to have sex.
  - orthecreedence 9y ago
    So what's your solution? Sex robots? (I'm not kidding). If there are people willing to pay for sex, and people willing to have sex for money, how do you stop them from entering into this transaction, whether regulated or unregulated? I can see you are morally opposed to prostitution, but, like, what's your solution here? What, in your head, is the lesser of all evils that can be practically implemented and enforced?

afejowj 9y ago

If "a fuck for a buck" or "sex to survive" is their only option, it's not really "do what they please with their own bodies."