4 ms·

Just wait til ISPs want to sell you VPNs... for [insert random marketing benefit like 'security', 'privacy', 'discounts', 'no data cap', 'cheaper' that hides th

Just wait til ISPs want to sell you VPNs... for [insert random marketing benefit like 'security', 'privacy', 'discounts', 'no data cap', 'cheaper' that hides throttling competitors and allows them to install an app on your devices to do whatever they want including scraping, which many people will fall for due to abused instilled trust from their privileged network gateway position they bribed to attain]

ethbro 9y ago
No doubt. Extrapolating down the current trajectory, probably dovetailed with law enforcement concerns, there's no way that doesn't happen. Encryption moots all the additional value they're trying to create. That's essentially their play with mobile-accessible first party content players. Make it easy / mandate it, and people will happily walk into the walled garden where they can be watched.
- drawkbox 9y ago
  Also, if you already use a VPN I'd say you already don't trust your ISP but you want them to have more power? My evil genius side tells me that ISPs have already been developing VPN clients and probably own many third party ones through shell corps and obscuring/finagling ownership offshore even. In the last few years some have really taken off and gotten lots of funding and advertising and fit this model, I won't name names but I have my conjecture suspicions on a handfuls of them. Sketchy or poser VPN clients can say they don't keep logs but they can easily transfer it off to the ISPs which they are now LEGALLY allowed to sell off and share. Because VPN clients are apps installed on devices (mobile/desktop/tablets etc) they can basically do anything to get that data including scraping destinations and content from unencrypted browsers and apps once the handshake is complete and decrypted. You are thinking naively or aren't thinking predatory or evil enough to think like ISP bullies yet. ISPs didn't bribe and lobby HARD for over a decade removing privacy protections and neutrality of networks just to be blocked by encrypted transmissions. ISPs have also been very friendly to surveillance overreaches, they probably cut deals for using that data and since there are so few and your gateway it is easy. [1][2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A [2] https://www.wired.com/2013/06/nsa-whistleblower-klein/ https://www.wired.com/2013/06/nsa-whistleblower-klein/
  - ethbro 9y ago
    I'd like to note that I never said ISPs shouldn't be regulated. Simply that modern ISPs and large network-effect web companies share many characteristics, so calling for one to be regulated and the other not (whichever way it goes) seems odd. As for the specific point, in my threat model ISPs aren't competent or rewarded enough to poison VPN clients. Comcast may be anti-user, but I don't think it's NSA-capable. My overarching belief is that there are technical solutions to network adversaries. There are fewer (and sometimes no) technical solutions to application adversaries, when I desire to use the service. (And see my previous comments about some large services approaching unavoidable status)
    - drawkbox 9y ago
      > As for the specific point, in my threat model ISPs aren't competent or rewarded enough to poison VPN clients. Your ISP will know popular VPNs and will definitely get in the VPN client/app game. > Comcast may be anti-user, but I don't think it's NSA-capable. My overarching belief is that there are technical solutions to network adversaries. You have much more trust for your ISP than most in tech. > There are fewer (and sometimes no) technical solutions to application adversaries, when I desire to use the service. You can use or not use the services at the app layer full stop. Meanwhile your lack of trust for the app layer being market regulated eventhough the the application layer is more easily blocked and competitive seems biased towards ISPs. Yet you don't seem to mind if ISPs are in reselling your private data that you PAY them to secure, and lobbied to get that additionally entering the VPN game, which they are just not publicly yet. It is a strange position to take if you are being objective about it, that the network is more easily secured than something that runs on the network. I completely disagree and we'll just have to agree to disagree. ISPs have no reason to earn your trust and they have no competitive threats to keep them honest. There can be a #deletefacebook movement because it is possible, there can't be a #deleteyourisp movement because you simply cannot, that is why they are bullies to the customer. ISPs will also be the brownshirts that implement the government firewall that is coming due to insane overreach by authority. ISPs can't wait to further their monopolies buddying up to the authority [1]. Definitely not going to be able to route around that one, 'for your safety'. ISPs want the whole internet to be like hotel wifi. [1] https://www.wired.com/2017/04/internet-censorship-is-advancing-under-trump/ https://www.wired.com/2017/04/internet-censorship-is-advanci...

ethbro 9y ago

No doubt. Extrapolating down the current trajectory, probably dovetailed with law enforcement concerns, there's no way that doesn't happen. Encryption moots all the additional value they're trying to create. That's essentially their play with mobile-accessible first party content players. Make it easy / mandate it, and people will happily walk into the walled garden where they can be watched.

drawkbox 9y ago
Also, if you already use a VPN I'd say you already don't trust your ISP but you want them to have more power? My evil genius side tells me that ISPs have already been developing VPN clients and probably own many third party ones through shell corps and obscuring/finagling ownership offshore even. In the last few years some have really taken off and gotten lots of funding and advertising and fit this model, I won't name names but I have my conjecture suspicions on a handfuls of them. Sketchy or poser VPN clients can say they don't keep logs but they can easily transfer it off to the ISPs which they are now LEGALLY allowed to sell off and share. Because VPN clients are apps installed on devices (mobile/desktop/tablets etc) they can basically do anything to get that data including scraping destinations and content from unencrypted browsers and apps once the handshake is complete and decrypted. You are thinking naively or aren't thinking predatory or evil enough to think like ISP bullies yet. ISPs didn't bribe and lobby HARD for over a decade removing privacy protections and neutrality of networks just to be blocked by encrypted transmissions. ISPs have also been very friendly to surveillance overreaches, they probably cut deals for using that data and since there are so few and your gateway it is easy. [1][2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A [2] https://www.wired.com/2013/06/nsa-whistleblower-klein/ https://www.wired.com/2013/06/nsa-whistleblower-klein/
- ethbro 9y ago
  I'd like to note that I never said ISPs shouldn't be regulated. Simply that modern ISPs and large network-effect web companies share many characteristics, so calling for one to be regulated and the other not (whichever way it goes) seems odd. As for the specific point, in my threat model ISPs aren't competent or rewarded enough to poison VPN clients. Comcast may be anti-user, but I don't think it's NSA-capable. My overarching belief is that there are technical solutions to network adversaries. There are fewer (and sometimes no) technical solutions to application adversaries, when I desire to use the service. (And see my previous comments about some large services approaching unavoidable status)
  - drawkbox 9y ago
    > As for the specific point, in my threat model ISPs aren't competent or rewarded enough to poison VPN clients. Your ISP will know popular VPNs and will definitely get in the VPN client/app game. > Comcast may be anti-user, but I don't think it's NSA-capable. My overarching belief is that there are technical solutions to network adversaries. You have much more trust for your ISP than most in tech. > There are fewer (and sometimes no) technical solutions to application adversaries, when I desire to use the service. You can use or not use the services at the app layer full stop. Meanwhile your lack of trust for the app layer being market regulated eventhough the the application layer is more easily blocked and competitive seems biased towards ISPs. Yet you don't seem to mind if ISPs are in reselling your private data that you PAY them to secure, and lobbied to get that additionally entering the VPN game, which they are just not publicly yet. It is a strange position to take if you are being objective about it, that the network is more easily secured than something that runs on the network. I completely disagree and we'll just have to agree to disagree. ISPs have no reason to earn your trust and they have no competitive threats to keep them honest. There can be a #deletefacebook movement because it is possible, there can't be a #deleteyourisp movement because you simply cannot, that is why they are bullies to the customer. ISPs will also be the brownshirts that implement the government firewall that is coming due to insane overreach by authority. ISPs can't wait to further their monopolies buddying up to the authority [1]. Definitely not going to be able to route around that one, 'for your safety'. ISPs want the whole internet to be like hotel wifi. [1] https://www.wired.com/2017/04/internet-censorship-is-advancing-under-trump/ https://www.wired.com/2017/04/internet-censorship-is-advanci...