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> Your product is not backend-heavy, such as: ...machine-learning models Maybe the meanings of these words have morphed over time, but in what sense is a "mach

> Your product is not backend-heavy, such as: ...machine-learning models Maybe the meanings of these words have morphed over time, but in what sense is a "machine-learning model" not a back-end concern? It sure as heck isn't front-end... (E.g., the current wiki page for "front and back end" explicitly mentions "converting the symbolic phonetic representation into actual sounds" as an example of a back end concern, and that's certainly the type of task that some people use machine learning for.) Honest question: does "back-end" now mean "the CRUD and API client portions of a web-based CRUD app?" This might go toward a larger question that others are asking: what exactly is darklang and what does it do?

chrisseaton 8y ago
> Maybe the meanings of these words have morphed over time, but in what sense is a "machine-learning model" not a back-end concern? It sure as heck isn't front-end... Huh? They're giving it as an example of something that is backend-heavy that they don't want your product to be like. You've got it backwards. > (Your product is (not (backend-heavy, such as: ...machine-learning models)))
- tom_mellior 8y ago
  > They're giving it as an example of something that is backend-heavy that they don't want your product to be like. I think it's you who have got it backwards. Here's the entire thing: "This probably isn’t a good fit if: Your product is not backend-heavy, such as: an iPhone game, hardware, machine-learning models, blockchain, or embedded systems." I read that as "if you're a hardware startup, you're not backend-heavy, so you are not a good fit", "if you're an iPhone game startup, you're not backend-heavy, so you are not a good fit", and yes, also "if you're a machine learning startup, you are not backend-heavy, so you are not a good fit".
- throwawayjava 8y ago
  > They're giving it as an example of something that is backend-heavy that they don't want your product to be like. You've got it backwards Yes, it's clear enough that they don't want you to be a member of that list. But what characterizes the elements of that list?! In any grammatical or intuitive reading of "This probably isn't a good fit if your product is not backend-heavy, such as: ..." the "..." is a list of things that are "not backend-heavy". And the first element is "iPhone game", which is certainly an example of something that is "not backend-heavy"! > (Your product is (not (backend-heavy, such as: ...machine-learning models))) Oh no! That's horribly confusing and not how lists are used in English! If that's what they meant, the post needs rewording. The correct way to say something like that is e.g., "Your product is back-end heavy but is not [insert delineating characteristics], such as: [insert original list here]". To return the substance instead of grammar, IMO the "[insert delineating characteristics]" portion of that sentence is exactly what's missing from this advert!
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    > And the first element is "iPhone game", which is certainly an example of something that is "not backend-heavy"! I thought they were referring to a multiplayer game with a server that has to be very low latency, handle a lot of connections, and not easily distributable, so that did seem backend-heavy. But whatever they mean then, it's obviously not clear enough.
- projectramo 8y ago
  I would have to agree with the person you are responding to. The other examples (iphone games, embedded systems) are not back end heavy. I think what they mean by "back end heavy" is actually CRUD heavy and they put all these systems together under that non-CRUD heavy banner.
aylmao 8y ago
Fair comment, thought something similar when I first read this, but ML falls into its own category IMO because it's not part of the "application" most of the time. It's back-end in that it's not front-end, but it's not what you'd normally consider the back-end of an app. A model is built offline, experimented upon, tested, and then once ready "connected" to the main app. Like, the TensorFlow code you write doesn't "need" to be on the server; it could be running on your laptop for all you care. It's the output model that eventually makes it into the back-end ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. > Honest question: does "back-end" now mean "the CRUD and API client portions of a web-based CRUD app?" Back-end has always meant the CRUD/API portions of a CRUD app.
- throwawayjava 8y ago
  > It's the output model that eventually makes it into the back-end ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Yes, the model itself is part of the backend, not the code used to generate the model. But the website explicitly mentions "machine-learning __models__" as an example of something that's "not backend". > Back-end has always meant the CRUD/API portions of a CRUD app. This is not true. Compilers have backends. Speech processing pipelines have backends. The dragon book, which pre-dates the advent of the WWW, distinguished frontend from backend (and in those words). Web-based CRUD apps inherited the terminology.
  - aylmao 8y ago
    People have back-ends. Of course I know "back-end" is very broad, I just thought we were in the same page here, talking about a web back-ends, that is all. Under that broad definition of the term, sure, go ahead and rant.

chrisseaton 8y ago

> Maybe the meanings of these words have morphed over time, but in what sense is a "machine-learning model" not a back-end concern? It sure as heck isn't front-end... Huh? They're giving it as an example of something that is backend-heavy that they don't want your product to be like. You've got it backwards. > (Your product is (not (backend-heavy, such as: ...machine-learning models)))

tom_mellior 8y ago
> They're giving it as an example of something that is backend-heavy that they don't want your product to be like. I think it's you who have got it backwards. Here's the entire thing: "This probably isn’t a good fit if: Your product is not backend-heavy, such as: an iPhone game, hardware, machine-learning models, blockchain, or embedded systems." I read that as "if you're a hardware startup, you're not backend-heavy, so you are not a good fit", "if you're an iPhone game startup, you're not backend-heavy, so you are not a good fit", and yes, also "if you're a machine learning startup, you are not backend-heavy, so you are not a good fit".
throwawayjava 8y ago
> They're giving it as an example of something that is backend-heavy that they don't want your product to be like. You've got it backwards Yes, it's clear enough that they don't want you to be a member of that list. But what characterizes the elements of that list?! In any grammatical or intuitive reading of "This probably isn't a good fit if your product is not backend-heavy, such as: ..." the "..." is a list of things that are "not backend-heavy". And the first element is "iPhone game", which is certainly an example of something that is "not backend-heavy"! > (Your product is (not (backend-heavy, such as: ...machine-learning models))) Oh no! That's horribly confusing and not how lists are used in English! If that's what they meant, the post needs rewording. The correct way to say something like that is e.g., "Your product is back-end heavy but is not [insert delineating characteristics], such as: [insert original list here]". To return the substance instead of grammar, IMO the "[insert delineating characteristics]" portion of that sentence is exactly what's missing from this advert!
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  > And the first element is "iPhone game", which is certainly an example of something that is "not backend-heavy"! I thought they were referring to a multiplayer game with a server that has to be very low latency, handle a lot of connections, and not easily distributable, so that did seem backend-heavy. But whatever they mean then, it's obviously not clear enough.
projectramo 8y ago
I would have to agree with the person you are responding to. The other examples (iphone games, embedded systems) are not back end heavy. I think what they mean by "back end heavy" is actually CRUD heavy and they put all these systems together under that non-CRUD heavy banner.

aylmao 8y ago

Fair comment, thought something similar when I first read this, but ML falls into its own category IMO because it's not part of the "application" most of the time. It's back-end in that it's not front-end, but it's not what you'd normally consider the back-end of an app. A model is built offline, experimented upon, tested, and then once ready "connected" to the main app. Like, the TensorFlow code you write doesn't "need" to be on the server; it could be running on your laptop for all you care. It's the output model that eventually makes it into the back-end ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. > Honest question: does "back-end" now mean "the CRUD and API client portions of a web-based CRUD app?" Back-end has always meant the CRUD/API portions of a CRUD app.

throwawayjava 8y ago
> It's the output model that eventually makes it into the back-end ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Yes, the model itself is part of the backend, not the code used to generate the model. But the website explicitly mentions "machine-learning __models__" as an example of something that's "not backend". > Back-end has always meant the CRUD/API portions of a CRUD app. This is not true. Compilers have backends. Speech processing pipelines have backends. The dragon book, which pre-dates the advent of the WWW, distinguished frontend from backend (and in those words). Web-based CRUD apps inherited the terminology.
- aylmao 8y ago
  People have back-ends. Of course I know "back-end" is very broad, I just thought we were in the same page here, talking about a web back-ends, that is all. Under that broad definition of the term, sure, go ahead and rant.