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Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'
- ocdtrekkie 8y agoI think the missing discussion is that some bad law exists, but that SESTA/FOSTA is not that bad law: Websites should not be immune to prosecution for intentionally facilitating criminal activity. Section 230 is a bad thing and it going away is a good thing. Headlines I've seen like "sex workers are the canary in the coal mine for free speech" are not really accurate, because this is about activity which is and has been illegal, not suppressing speech. The problem is that there's no good reason for prostitution in general to be illegal in the United States. While I have no interest in partaking in such activity myself, I realize that the sole interest in banning it appears to be religion... something which cannot and should not govern our country's laws. I'm a Christian, but I don't think Christian views should be the determining factor in our legislature... that's the Constitution's job.
- AFNobody 8y ago> I think the missing discussion is that some bad law exists, but that SESTA/FOSTA is not that bad law: Websites should not be immune to prosecution for intentionally facilitating criminal activity. Section 230 Pretending that Section 230 willing enables participation in an illegal enterprise is a complete fabrication with no grounding in reality. Prosecuting Backpage without SESTA/FOSTA was possible which is why Backpage was taken down and indicted BEFORE the law was signed (and therefore, enforceable). Why do you think all the torrent sites get taken down? Or YouTube was sued? or 2903420934230 other things where a site violates some law be profiting from otherwise illegal UGC? Or the various dark net markets like the one Dread Pirate Roberts ran? Section 230 has _never_ provided more than a reasonable barrier to overcome to prevent absurd legal attacks.
- maxxxxx 8y agoThe ban on prostitution is the same thing as the war on drugs. It wasn't able to stop the practice so the only result was to move these into the criminal environment. I'd much prefer if prostitution (and drugs) was tightly regulated but in the open.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- kup0 8y agoFrom the arguments I've seen, the big issue is that removing these areas from the web makes those caught in trafficking harder to rescue, as it drives the info deeper underground on the web or off the web altogether. Even the DOJ even weighed in (https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4390361/Views-Ltr-Re-H-R-1865-Allow-States-and-Victims.pdf https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4390361/Views-Ltr...) and said it will make catching traffickers more difficult. When you have the DOJ opposing a proposal to strengthen a law, that should be a significant red flag. Of course, I understand my comment is specifically about the implications for trafficking, not self-decided/employed sex workers. In regards to the latter, I think the article describes it well, regardless of it being illegal, SESTA/FOSTA only makes it more dangerous for both groups.
- guelo 8y ago> Section 230 is a bad thing and it going away is a good thing The last 20 years of web innovation begs to differ. Killing user-generated content will make us all worse off.
- ocdtrekkie 8y agoI vehemently disagree with the rhetoric of the tech companies that holding them legally responsible for willful participation in criminal activity will "kill user-generated content".
- guelo 8y agoYour "the tech companies" is a tell to where the problem lies. In your world only well funded tech companies that can pay for a team of moderators or a team of expensive engineers to develop AI filters will be able to host user generated content. But a lot of times innovation comes from small unfunded individuals.
- ocdtrekkie 8y agoOn the contrary: A couple moderators on a small site have no problem being able to say they don't willfully permit their site to be used for criminal activity. It's only "planet-scale" companies that seem to indicate they can't afford to moderate and review content reasonably. "AI" is not the answer. AI is not adequate or comparable to human moderators which small businesses employ. AI is a "solution" for providing lip service to accountability without spending the money to actually provide any sort of responsible service.
- guelo 8y ago"A couple moderators" aka goodbye user generated content that isn't generating at least six figure income.
- ocdtrekkie 8y ago
- blhack 8y ago>the sole interest in banning it appears to be religion If you can't think of any moral hazards around prostitution, then I don't believe that you are trying very hard. >I don't think Christian views should be the determining factor in our legislature Is Christianity the only moral system that looks poorly upon prostitution?
- sigzero 8y ago> Is Christianity the only moral system that looks poorly upon prostitution? No, but is it probably one of the most vocal.
- throwajay123 8y agopeople really think regulating how others have sex is going to fix the world. it would be adorably naive if it weren’t so grossly authoritarian, popular, and doomed to fail anyway.
- PhasmaFelis 8y agoThere are plenty of moral hazards around prostitution, and banning it outright makes all of them worse. It makes the women involved criminals and deprives them of legal protection when they're abused. The only reason to make prostitution a crime is if you think prostitutes themselves are committing evil. That is 100% a religious position with no rational support.
- DanBC 8y agoHow does your comment fit with children being drugged and forced into prostitution? And then adults being drugged and forced into prostitution? And then adults feeding a drug addiction? At which point of this ladder do you start to say "no, this is where we need to make it illegal"?
- s73v3r_ 8y agoAt the "forced into prostitution" part. Because prostitution itself being legal or not does not encourage the others. Outlawing it has not eliminated those other things; in fact, many say that it has made them worse.
- Ancalagon 8y agoWhat's even more obnoxious is the hypocritical legality of pornography in the US. All of the problems created by prostitution are present in the porn industry, somehow we manage to overlook this aspect though.
- ocdtrekkie 8y agoClearly, the problem with prostitution is that you aren't filming it!
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- Shivetya 8y agoWell Soliciting Prostitution is not a federal crime in the US however what the AG and other LE officials do to get around that is go after people under The Travel Act. This is where fifty of the ninety three charges against the Backpage founder where put to nail him "for prostitution" because the Travel Act allows prosecutors to charge people with a Federal crime for violating a state crime if they cross state borders. That use of the Travel Act to combat prostitution has been used to get any site they wanted to shut down. In other words, since Congress isn't about to reign them in nor the courts prosecutors at the Federal level can do about what they please. This is not to say backpage was innocent, only in how non Federal crimes can become such by stretching intent
- shkkmo 8y ago> Websites should not be immune to prosecution for intentionally facilitating criminal activity. They are not immune from that and Section 230 doesn't make them immune to that. What section 230 means is that "implementing any moderation or filtering of user content does not automatically make you an editor and thus liable for all content on your site". Without section 230, Dang cannot do moderation on HN without HN becoming liable for EVERYTHING that is posted to the site. Facebook, Google and Twitter will be economically forced to stop filtering abhorrent content to avoid massive legal liabilities. The missing discussion is that people need to stop jumping into the discussion without understanding the historical and legal context of section 230.
- AFNobody 8y ago> Donald Trump is expected to sign the law this week, but sex workers across the country told the Guardian they were already suffering consequences. Craigslist shut down its personals section, and federal authorities seized Backpage.com, releasing an indictment this week accusing its founders of money laundering and “facilitating prostitution”. The list of charges did not include trafficking. And just a reminder this law was 100% unnecessary to prosecute Backpage. This was purely puritanical bullshit designed to hurt sex workers in the US that are here legally. They just needed a "cause" to sell to rubes.
- giancarlostoro 8y agoJust like SOPA wasn't necessary when they took down Mega Upload by arresting people accross the world without SOPA or any of the proposed bills that followed....
- taobility 8y agoanother headline: Drug dealers fear violence as DEA existing. Drug dealer is also dealer!
- coenhyde 8y agoJust legalize it already! It's been proven time and time again across many countries around the world that legalizing and regulating prostitution creates a safer environment for the girls AND the customers.
- ihsw2 8y agoProstitution is abhorrent to the women's rights movement -- it is another tool of oppression. Women are having sex with men whom they otherwise wouldn't have sex with -- we should be removing the need for sex work rather than accommodating it. Sex "for survival," child prostitution, sex trafficking -- none of these go away when the stigma and illegality are removed and if anything it gets worse because clients just automatically assume their sexual partner isn't (for example) a victim of sex trafficking.
- orthecreedence 8y agoSorry, I completely disagree. Sex is one of the last places where women have more power than men. I believe that illegalizing prostitution and other forms of sex acts is a way for a male-dominated world to try to, yet again, limit the power women have in society. A regulated sex marketplace is going to mean women can be much more picky about who they choose to sleep with, and can do so much more safely. They can use their sexual power to make financial gains for themselves. I believe this is empowering towards women, much more so than trying to erradicate all forms of prostitution. There will still be illegal activity, but legalizing prostitution will decrease the noise on activity that actually IS bad (children in sex work, forced sex work, etc).
- phkahler 8y ago>> Sex is one of the last places where women have more power than men. It's interesting that you point that out. Some claim that plenty of women use their sexuality to manipulate men, to trade sex for resources (marriage), and other such things. By legalizing prostitution you deprive the rest of the women from being able to do this - guys don't have to buy the cow when they can get the milk on an as-needed basis for a negotiated price and no strings attached.
- aaroninsf 8y agoTwo attempted kidnappings yesterday: https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Teen-girl-young-woman-escape-kidnappings-in-12819197.php#photo-11304920 https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Teen-girl-young-woman-e... FTA: "Just two hours earlier, in what police said was an unrelated incident, a 19-year-old woman was walking just three blocks away from the kidnapping when she was dragged into a car by a group of two men and two women." The northeast mission remains a center of drive-by prostitution. Hard to read these stories without speculating this is an indication of what's to come thanks to SESTA/FOSTA. Can't believe that Kamala Harris supported this. It's not helpful to say this is a reasonable law and that prostitution's illegality is the problem. In the world we live in it is and will remain so. That makes this a bad and dangerous law.
- whack 8y agoIt's really sad to hear about sex workers fearing for their very lives, let alone their livelihood. These are some of the most disadvantaged and vulnerable members of society. Their lives could be so much better if we moved towards Netherlands/German-style legalization. Instead, we seem to be going in the opposite direction. I wonder who exactly the opponents of sex-legalization are trying to "protect". Trafficking victims? They will be vastly better served by a well regulated workplace. The sex workers themselves? I think this article debunks that myth. The Johns? Hah, there's a good laugh. The criminalization of the sex industry seems like Prohibition all over again.
- dwighttk 8y ago>Trafficking victims? They will be vastly better served by a well regulated workplace. why?
- colinb 8y agoI think the obvious answer is because they could complain to the police if they were under threat. Of course, it being the obvious answer doesn't preclude it being nonsense, so feel free to tell me why I'm wrong.
- jzymbaluk 8y agoI think the more obvious answer is that if the market is well-regulated and above-board, there is no need for the shady unregulated black market where kidnapping and human trafficking are things that happen.
- dwighttk 8y agoThen why are the Netherlands "a source, destination, and transit country for men, women, and children subjected to sex trafficking and forced labor"[1]? [1]https://www.state.gov/j/tip/rls/tiprpt/countries/2017/271251.htm https://www.state.gov/j/tip/rls/tiprpt/countries/2017/271251...
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- patrickaljord 8y agoI hate to use the <current year> argument but it's really sad that in 2018 we're still trying to make voluntary sex work illegal when every studies show that it 1) doesn't work and 2) makes everything worse for everyone involved. Also, the fact that the very president is known to have used prostitutes and that Washington politicians are well known to be big customers makes this hypocrisy really infuriating.
- dilap 8y agoit's also just an absurd restriction from a perspective that values individual liberty. "my body, my choice" "consenting adults" -- all that goes out the window when it's sex for cash? it makes no sense.
- Broken_Hippo 8y ago...all that goes out the window when it's sex for cash? only if it is a private transaction. Making pornography is legal. You are correct, there lies no sense here.
- djsumdog 8y agoSo if you want to legally pay someone for sex, you and the person you're paying have to agree to be on tape, you need to check their ID and make a photo of it[1], you probably need to get them to fill out all the standard compliance forms and you probably only want to do this in California, Florida or one of those other locations that big porn studios flock to because the laws are favorable to their industry and less ambiguous. ..or I guess you could move to Nevada. [1] If they use a fake ID and are underage, you can still be liable.
- jdavis703 8y agoMaking pornography is only legal if you comply with certain regulations. For example you need to validate that all the "actors" were adults (sane enough). But then you also need to maintain a place that is accessible to law enforcement during business hours so they can drop in and check your records to validate all the "actors" were over the legal age (sane enough, especially if the thinking is only businesses generate porn). But then the way the laws are written, a couple recording a sex tape is covered under these regulations. If they don't maintain the proper records, they could find themselves being indicated under child porn laws, even though they were both consenting adults.
- yters 8y agoIt's interesting seeing all the men supporting 'sex work' when it is the woman who is left to deal with the repercussions of her body being used and abused for money. The real problem is not the crack down, but the social forces that make women feel like this is the only source of income available to them, and the dirtbag men who take advantage of them. This does not boost my opinion of internet "intellectuals", nor of the HN community who seem largely in favor of taking advantage of women in this way.
- esarbe 8y agoSex work is work. Just like a job in a mine or on an oil rig it might be an unhealthy, dangerous job with serious health repercussions. But it's a job nonetheless. Would I prefer a world where men didn't have to waste their health in mines and women theirs in prostitution? Sure, I'm all for a UBI. But it is hypocrisy to treat these professions and the health implications they have as any different.
- yters 8y agoMining is a legitimate need. Men don't need prostitutes. What men need is to treat women as equal human beings, and not a vessel for their lusts.
- esarbe 8y agoYou make it sound as if lust was something bad. Interesting. Sexual intercourse is as much a necessity as is mining. More so, I'd say. Humans are not mining machines, they are reproduction machines. To deny this is to deny human nature. Also, sex in and in itself has nothing to do with respect or disrespect. It's simply a physical act.
- yters 8y agoIt is. Lust makes one person dehumanize another person and use them as a tool for their own pleasure. Anytime we dehumanize each other it is bad, regardless of the negative consequences, of which there are many (broken families, STDs, domestic violence, child abuse, etc.)
- yters 8y agoWhat kind of 'feminist' community is HN when men want women to let strangers abuse their bodies? 'Feminist' men are merely cads taking advantage of women using politically correct language. Anyways, if this is the sort of 'pro-women' environment HN wants to foster, count me out.
- commandlinefan 8y agoabuse? That's a bit of a stretch.
- yters 8y agoSTDs, unplanned pregnancies, any number of horrible things men might do to the prostitutes, the psychological abuse of having one's body be treated as an instrument for another's pleasure, of having one's humanity be reduced to being a sex doll.
- JoeAltmaier 8y agoI don't mean to diminish the hardships of prostitution. But its a matter of degree, isn't it? What performance artist isn't reduced to an instrument for another?
- yters 8y agoThe body is an especially intimate part of one's being. To denigrate it to be another's tool is no different than slavery, even if one receives financial recompense.
- commandlinefan 8y agoDon't you think that should be up to the owner of that body, rather than you?
- yters 8y agoPeople make bad decisions about their bodies all the time. When the decision is bad enough, you intervene. Drug abuse and alcoholism are clearer. You don't let your friend go down the path of heroin abuse and an early grave.
- forkLding 8y agoI've wondered if a solutions is to allow prostitution 'brothels' as legitimate businesses by those prosituting like Amsterdam or in a legalized Red Light District or even operate as semi government owned and taxed like they do weed (still in the works) and alcohol in ontario canada. It would take out all of the danger and illegality as for example one doesnt go into shady corners or connections to buy cigarettes or alcohol like weed because its legalized and policed correctly.