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> ISPs sell a commodity. Agreed, you might even say ISPs/networks are a utility now, though ISPs seem to not think that. The difference here is that the ISP u

> ISPs sell a commodity. Agreed, you might even say ISPs/networks are a utility now, though ISPs seem to not think that. The difference here is that the ISP utility/commodity is not only a local monopoly with false competition but they are trying to leverage that trusted position to sell you other things and wants to be an ad network with your private data. Your oil/steel/water company isn't trying to get you to sign up to HBO or some discounted bundle, build an ad network from your data or limiting how much or which way you can use your oil/steel/water. ISPs could rapidly expand their network and build products people want on top of it leveraging that new capability separate from the ISP on web/mobile/media and compete in the street rather than leveraging their trusted position, but they won't because they are in the bribing/milking it/monopoly laziness phase not the competitive innovative phase. ISPs resemble those companies that innovated, got top market position then just turned to metrics not continuing to innovate, more like Microsoft around 2006 than Amazon today.

ethbro 9y ago
ISPs know they're a commodity, which is why everything they're doing is a struggle to avoid that trap. I guess I look at ISPs as acting in their own best interest rather than out of malice. Essentially every initiative they've tried for the last few decades comes straight from HBR [1]. They aren't bad ideas, they're just almost all anti-consumer. And their options for innovation are limited (as publicly traded companies). The thing we (HN) would like ("faster internet for cheaper") is the most expensive for them to build. So naturally they gravitate towards VOIP or mobile content, because those things produce better ROI. The only way we'd get the ISPs we want is if they were prohibited from being anything other than utilities. Although the irony there is that they'd likely find it difficult to access the necessary capital to build super fast networks. (Or in other words, the blood tracking money subsidizes faster internet connections) [1] https://hbr.org/2007/12/how-to-avoid-the-commodity-tra https://hbr.org/2007/12/how-to-avoid-the-commodity-tra
smsm42 9y ago
> they are trying to leverage that trusted position to sell you other things Which is what everybody is doing. Doesn't Amazon try to sell you Prime or Amazon Video or Prime Now or Echo or whatever else they have? Doesn't Facebook try to sell you advertising and promotion services? Doesn't Whole Foods, being just bought by Amazon, now try to sell you grocery delivery service by Amazon? Don't thousand of organizations have branded credit cards, branded insurance policies, branded merchandise, etc.? Cross-sells are as old as commerce itself. I don't see anything evil in that. What's wrong in offering you a deal? If you don't want it, you don't buy it. > Your oil/steel/water company isn't trying to get you to sign up to HBO or some discounted bundle Water company regularly sends me insurance solicitations. Gas companies have affiliate networks with all kinds of cross-sells. I don't buy steel beams so no idea what's up there :) > they won't because they are in the bribing/milking it/monopoly laziness phase not the competitive innovative phase Wait, so you're complaining about ISPs offering you various "other things" for sale and at the same time you're complaining they are not offering you enough various other things for sale? BTW, how you easy do you imagine for ISPs to innovate if they'd be tightly regulated on what they can charge, who they can charge and which traffic they can price in which way - based on fixing the current model of doing ISP business? To innovate, you need to try various things - sometimes crazy things, sometimes wrong things, sometimes wildly unusual and controversial things. But any unusual move by ISP is commonly seen as yet another step in the evil plot of oppressing their customers - how you expect to see innovation in this space with such approach? If every new website would be considered only as a plot to steal your private data and your money - how many e-commerce startups could survive in such an environment? What if the government would crack a whip anytime somebody builds an unusual site or charges customers using a novel pricing scheme?

ethbro 9y ago

ISPs know they're a commodity, which is why everything they're doing is a struggle to avoid that trap. I guess I look at ISPs as acting in their own best interest rather than out of malice. Essentially every initiative they've tried for the last few decades comes straight from HBR [1]. They aren't bad ideas, they're just almost all anti-consumer. And their options for innovation are limited (as publicly traded companies). The thing we (HN) would like ("faster internet for cheaper") is the most expensive for them to build. So naturally they gravitate towards VOIP or mobile content, because those things produce better ROI. The only way we'd get the ISPs we want is if they were prohibited from being anything other than utilities. Although the irony there is that they'd likely find it difficult to access the necessary capital to build super fast networks. (Or in other words, the blood tracking money subsidizes faster internet connections) [1] https://hbr.org/2007/12/how-to-avoid-the-commodity-tra https://hbr.org/2007/12/how-to-avoid-the-commodity-tra

smsm42 9y ago

> they are trying to leverage that trusted position to sell you other things Which is what everybody is doing. Doesn't Amazon try to sell you Prime or Amazon Video or Prime Now or Echo or whatever else they have? Doesn't Facebook try to sell you advertising and promotion services? Doesn't Whole Foods, being just bought by Amazon, now try to sell you grocery delivery service by Amazon? Don't thousand of organizations have branded credit cards, branded insurance policies, branded merchandise, etc.? Cross-sells are as old as commerce itself. I don't see anything evil in that. What's wrong in offering you a deal? If you don't want it, you don't buy it. > Your oil/steel/water company isn't trying to get you to sign up to HBO or some discounted bundle Water company regularly sends me insurance solicitations. Gas companies have affiliate networks with all kinds of cross-sells. I don't buy steel beams so no idea what's up there :) > they won't because they are in the bribing/milking it/monopoly laziness phase not the competitive innovative phase Wait, so you're complaining about ISPs offering you various "other things" for sale and at the same time you're complaining they are not offering you enough various other things for sale? BTW, how you easy do you imagine for ISPs to innovate if they'd be tightly regulated on what they can charge, who they can charge and which traffic they can price in which way - based on fixing the current model of doing ISP business? To innovate, you need to try various things - sometimes crazy things, sometimes wrong things, sometimes wildly unusual and controversial things. But any unusual move by ISP is commonly seen as yet another step in the evil plot of oppressing their customers - how you expect to see innovation in this space with such approach? If every new website would be considered only as a plot to steal your private data and your money - how many e-commerce startups could survive in such an environment? What if the government would crack a whip anytime somebody builds an unusual site or charges customers using a novel pricing scheme?