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> I have yet to see a cogent argument justifying that difference. My suspicion is that it ultimately falls down to "ISPs are unpopular, web companies are popula

> I have yet to see a cogent argument justifying that difference. My suspicion is that it ultimately falls down to "ISPs are unpopular, web companies are popular." A cogent argument: ISPs are your gateway to the internet you can't route around and web/mobile/content companies are built on top and can be routed around. ISPs could build products people want instead of regulatory capturing their way into the game. ISPs aren't innovating through products, they are lobbying, bribing and legislating their way in. They should go more the direction of Hulu like Comcast did rather than trying to slow down innovation, nothing is stopping ISPs from building web/mobile properties that people want to use rather than fighting against them. ISPs should spend more money on expanding networks not data caps, slow lanes and lobbying to retain their local monopolies. ISPs should get out of the business if they don't want to be neutral networks who protect private data as the steward of your gateway to the network, they want to be content companies and ad/data collectors. ISPs should basically be focused on what their customers want, like web companies have to do to compete, rather than what the company wants solely. Being local monopolies has gone to their head and they are abusing the position/trust. Noone but the ISPs wanted their ISP selling their private data, removing neutral network protections, adding data caps, slowing down expansions, adding slow lanes for milking it. Google Fiber is an ISP, they should also be neutral and not selling data. ISPs are the gatway to the network and privacy is important as well as innovations to allow new types of web/mobile/media companies, right now they are trying to limit that. When ISPs are focused again on being a neutral network that protects your trust and provides competitive speeds with the world, then they will be liked again. Web companies aren't innocent but they aren't your gateway to the network. Ultimately, all large companies have turned predatory in the US. We are against bullying but not by large corps apparently. What is more respectable, innovative products that you want to use or products you are forced to use through authority and mini monopolies? You'll find your answer.

ethbro 9y ago
> ISPs are your gateway to the internet you can't route around and web/mobile/content companies are built on top and can be routed around. We disagree on a core premise then. I contend that at scale, web companies can't be routed around. At minimum, when I have to run blacklist filters to avoid my third party web traffic ending up logged on Google or Facebook servers, something is wrong. When the majority of new tech is being acquhired and integrated into existing platforms (e.g. WhatsApp & Google Docs), something is wrong. Your conclusion sums up my thoughts as well. > What is more respectable, innovative products that you want to use or products you are forced to use through authority and mini monopolies?
- drawkbox 9y ago
  > At minimum, when I have to run blacklist filters to avoid my third party web traffic ending up logged on Google or Facebook servers But you just admitted you can route around them. Let me know when you route around your ISP. Your line of thinking is basically the ISP narrative of "Hey web companies are doing lots of bad stuff, why can't we? And why can't we do so without building any product or anything anyone wants?" ISPs could build or help fund products that protect your data from Facebook/Google etc more easily, and those will pop up independently. But ISPs don't actually want to protect your data, they lobbied to get access to it without innovating or building products, they just want your data not them, it is a dangerous game that could really backfire on them.
  - ethbro 9y ago
    > Let me know when you route around your ISP. Right now? I can VPN to Switzerland. And I can use a TLS encrypted channel to most of the Internet. Until ISPs start banning / slow laning encryption or mandating ISP-controlled computers, hostile network links are a solved problem.
    - drawkbox 9y ago
      Just wait til ISPs want to sell you VPNs... for [insert random marketing benefit like 'security', 'privacy', 'discounts', 'no data cap', 'cheaper' that hides throttling competitors and allows them to install an app on your devices to do whatever they want including scraping, which many people will fall for due to abused instilled trust from their privileged network gateway position they bribed to attain]
      - ethbro 9y ago
        No doubt. Extrapolating down the current trajectory, probably dovetailed with law enforcement concerns, there's no way that doesn't happen. Encryption moots all the additional value they're trying to create. That's essentially their play with mobile-accessible first party content players. Make it easy / mandate it, and people will happily walk into the walled garden where they can be watched.

ethbro 9y ago

> ISPs are your gateway to the internet you can't route around and web/mobile/content companies are built on top and can be routed around. We disagree on a core premise then. I contend that at scale, web companies can't be routed around. At minimum, when I have to run blacklist filters to avoid my third party web traffic ending up logged on Google or Facebook servers, something is wrong. When the majority of new tech is being acquhired and integrated into existing platforms (e.g. WhatsApp & Google Docs), something is wrong. Your conclusion sums up my thoughts as well. > What is more respectable, innovative products that you want to use or products you are forced to use through authority and mini monopolies?

drawkbox 9y ago
> At minimum, when I have to run blacklist filters to avoid my third party web traffic ending up logged on Google or Facebook servers But you just admitted you can route around them. Let me know when you route around your ISP. Your line of thinking is basically the ISP narrative of "Hey web companies are doing lots of bad stuff, why can't we? And why can't we do so without building any product or anything anyone wants?" ISPs could build or help fund products that protect your data from Facebook/Google etc more easily, and those will pop up independently. But ISPs don't actually want to protect your data, they lobbied to get access to it without innovating or building products, they just want your data not them, it is a dangerous game that could really backfire on them.
- ethbro 9y ago
  > Let me know when you route around your ISP. Right now? I can VPN to Switzerland. And I can use a TLS encrypted channel to most of the Internet. Until ISPs start banning / slow laning encryption or mandating ISP-controlled computers, hostile network links are a solved problem.
  - drawkbox 9y ago
    Just wait til ISPs want to sell you VPNs... for [insert random marketing benefit like 'security', 'privacy', 'discounts', 'no data cap', 'cheaper' that hides throttling competitors and allows them to install an app on your devices to do whatever they want including scraping, which many people will fall for due to abused instilled trust from their privileged network gateway position they bribed to attain]
    - ethbro 9y ago
      No doubt. Extrapolating down the current trajectory, probably dovetailed with law enforcement concerns, there's no way that doesn't happen. Encryption moots all the additional value they're trying to create. That's essentially their play with mobile-accessible first party content players. Make it easy / mandate it, and people will happily walk into the walled garden where they can be watched.