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Currently we are passing through an atypical wind and rain period. Our dams are full and pouring out water as we are producing more energy than we consume. Des

Currently we are passing through an atypical wind and rain period. Our dams are full and pouring out water as we are producing more energy than we consume. Despite all of this energy prices don't drop as they are bound to one of the few legal monopolies in Europe: the grid operation cartel (REN in the article, there is only one allowed for each EU country). Also this feels as fake news since we have a few very old (and historically insecure, like sines power plant and carregado power plant) fossil fuel power plants that are still operating with no signs of slowing down while making profits through several scams in chemical engineering their way into the 0 emissions lot.

sergiosgc 8y ago
Sines is the only coal plant in the country. Carregado has been converted to a combined cycle natural gas plant. The remaining thermal power plants all burn natural gas/biomass.
- HugoDaniel 8y ago
  Thanks, i edited my comment accordingly :)
- Thisisdense 8y ago
  What about Pego and Tapada do Outeiro?
hobolord 8y ago
are batteries (or some sort of storage) in the infrastructure plan for the future?
- westurner 8y ago
  Hemp supercapacitors might be a good solution to the energy grid storage problem. Hemp absorbs carbon, doesn't leave unplowable roots in the fields, returns up to 70% of nutrients to the soil, and grows quickly just about anywhere. Hemp bast fiber is normally waste. Hemp anodes for supercapacitors are made from the bast fiber that is normally waste. Graphene is very useful; but industrial production of graphene is dangerous because lungs and blood-brain barrier. Hemp is an alternative to graphene for modern supercapacitors (which now have much greater power density in wH/kg) "Hemp Carbon Makes Supercapacitors Superfast” https://www.asme.org/engineering-topics/articles/energy/hemp-carbon-makes-supercapacitors-superfast https://www.asme.org/engineering-topics/articles/energy/hemp... > “Our device’s electrochemical performance is on par with or better than graphene-based devices,” Mitlin says. “The key advantage is that our electrodes are made from biowaste using a simple process, and therefore, are much cheaper than graphene.” > Graphene is, however, expensive to manufacture, costing as much as $2,000 per gram. [...] developed a process for converting fibrous hemp waste into a unique graphene-like nanomaterial that outperforms graphene. What’s more, it can be manufactured for less than $500 per ton. > Hemp fiber waste was pressure-cooked (hydrothermal synthesis) at 180 °C for 24 hours. The resulting carbonized material was treated with potassium hydroxide and then heated to temperatures as high as 800 °C, resulting in the formation of uniquely structured nanosheets. Testing of this material revealed that it discharged 49 kW of power per kg of material—nearly triple what standard commercial electrodes supply, 17 kW/kg. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=hemp+supercapacitor https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=hemp+supercapacit... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercapacitor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercapacitor I feel like a broken record mentioning this again and again.
  - malloryerik 8y ago
    It does sound amazing and economical, like almost too good to be true, but I very much hope it is true. What are the downsides? Is there a degradation problem or something similar? Other than the stoner connection in people's minds, what kind of resistance is there to this? Why isn't it widely known?
    - westurner 8y ago
      You know, I'm not sure. This article is from a few years ago now and there's not much uptake. It may be that most people dismiss supercapacitors based on the stats for legacy (pre-graphene/pre-hemp) supercapacitors: large but quick and long-lasting. It may be that hemp is taxed at up to 90% because it's a controlled substance in the US (but not in Europe, Canada, or China; where we must import shelled hemp seeds from). A historical accident?
  - telchar 8y ago
    If you're going to be mentioning this again in the future please correct your usage of power/energy density. Power density is measured in W/kg, energy density is measured in Wh/kg. Supercapacitors tend to excel in the former but be poor in the latter. You mentioned power density but used units for energy density. This happens so often in media that I feel the need to correct it even in a comment.
    - westurner 8y ago
      > please correct your usage of power/energy density. Power density is measured in W/kg, energy density is measured in Wh/kg. Supercapacitors tend to excel in the former but be poor in the latter. I'd update the units; good call. You may have that confused? Traditional supercapacitors have had lower power density and faster charging/discharging. Graphene and hemp somewhat change the game, AFAIU. It makes sense to put supercapacitors in front of the battery banks because they last so many cycles and because they charge and discharge so quickly (a very helpful capability for handling spiky wind and solar loads).
- snowwindwaves 8y ago
  They have dams! Given the over provisioning required to be able to ensure a battery will be able to provide a guaranteed amount of energy, such as last say overnight in 5 years, and that batteries are good for a fixed number of cycles after which they have to be replaced, batteries were not competitive with pumped storage and all the civil works that entails on a project currently under construction.
  - sergiosgc 8y ago
    Correct. All of the large dams have been retrofitted with pumps. This involves creating the structures for pooling water downstream so you can pump it back up should the need arise. Dams have many problems. They can only be built on certain topographies, they have an ecological impact (destroy an ecosystem, albeit creating a different one), and have a social impact. However, in the context of energy production, they are amazing. They can start and stop as fast as loaded thermal plants (without the readiness fuel consumption cost), they are 100% renewable, provide aquifers for collecting urban water and provide the best energy storage/temporal load balancing technology today.
galfarragem 8y ago
Empirically, these high energy prices seem good: it leads to less energy waste and allow investment in more expensive but cleaner energy sources. However if energy prices rise too much it can hurt quality of life: e.g. home heating/cooling in Portugal is, at most, spartan.

sergiosgc 8y ago

Sines is the only coal plant in the country. Carregado has been converted to a combined cycle natural gas plant. The remaining thermal power plants all burn natural gas/biomass.

HugoDaniel 8y ago
Thanks, i edited my comment accordingly :)
Thisisdense 8y ago
What about Pego and Tapada do Outeiro?

hobolord 8y ago

are batteries (or some sort of storage) in the infrastructure plan for the future?

westurner 8y ago
Hemp supercapacitors might be a good solution to the energy grid storage problem. Hemp absorbs carbon, doesn't leave unplowable roots in the fields, returns up to 70% of nutrients to the soil, and grows quickly just about anywhere. Hemp bast fiber is normally waste. Hemp anodes for supercapacitors are made from the bast fiber that is normally waste. Graphene is very useful; but industrial production of graphene is dangerous because lungs and blood-brain barrier. Hemp is an alternative to graphene for modern supercapacitors (which now have much greater power density in wH/kg) "Hemp Carbon Makes Supercapacitors Superfast” https://www.asme.org/engineering-topics/articles/energy/hemp-carbon-makes-supercapacitors-superfast https://www.asme.org/engineering-topics/articles/energy/hemp... > “Our device’s electrochemical performance is on par with or better than graphene-based devices,” Mitlin says. “The key advantage is that our electrodes are made from biowaste using a simple process, and therefore, are much cheaper than graphene.” > Graphene is, however, expensive to manufacture, costing as much as $2,000 per gram. [...] developed a process for converting fibrous hemp waste into a unique graphene-like nanomaterial that outperforms graphene. What’s more, it can be manufactured for less than $500 per ton. > Hemp fiber waste was pressure-cooked (hydrothermal synthesis) at 180 °C for 24 hours. The resulting carbonized material was treated with potassium hydroxide and then heated to temperatures as high as 800 °C, resulting in the formation of uniquely structured nanosheets. Testing of this material revealed that it discharged 49 kW of power per kg of material—nearly triple what standard commercial electrodes supply, 17 kW/kg. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=hemp+supercapacitor https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=hemp+supercapacit... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercapacitor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercapacitor I feel like a broken record mentioning this again and again.
- malloryerik 8y ago
  It does sound amazing and economical, like almost too good to be true, but I very much hope it is true. What are the downsides? Is there a degradation problem or something similar? Other than the stoner connection in people's minds, what kind of resistance is there to this? Why isn't it widely known?
  - westurner 8y ago
    You know, I'm not sure. This article is from a few years ago now and there's not much uptake. It may be that most people dismiss supercapacitors based on the stats for legacy (pre-graphene/pre-hemp) supercapacitors: large but quick and long-lasting. It may be that hemp is taxed at up to 90% because it's a controlled substance in the US (but not in Europe, Canada, or China; where we must import shelled hemp seeds from). A historical accident?
- telchar 8y ago
  If you're going to be mentioning this again in the future please correct your usage of power/energy density. Power density is measured in W/kg, energy density is measured in Wh/kg. Supercapacitors tend to excel in the former but be poor in the latter. You mentioned power density but used units for energy density. This happens so often in media that I feel the need to correct it even in a comment.
  - westurner 8y ago
    > please correct your usage of power/energy density. Power density is measured in W/kg, energy density is measured in Wh/kg. Supercapacitors tend to excel in the former but be poor in the latter. I'd update the units; good call. You may have that confused? Traditional supercapacitors have had lower power density and faster charging/discharging. Graphene and hemp somewhat change the game, AFAIU. It makes sense to put supercapacitors in front of the battery banks because they last so many cycles and because they charge and discharge so quickly (a very helpful capability for handling spiky wind and solar loads).
snowwindwaves 8y ago
They have dams! Given the over provisioning required to be able to ensure a battery will be able to provide a guaranteed amount of energy, such as last say overnight in 5 years, and that batteries are good for a fixed number of cycles after which they have to be replaced, batteries were not competitive with pumped storage and all the civil works that entails on a project currently under construction.
- sergiosgc 8y ago
  Correct. All of the large dams have been retrofitted with pumps. This involves creating the structures for pooling water downstream so you can pump it back up should the need arise. Dams have many problems. They can only be built on certain topographies, they have an ecological impact (destroy an ecosystem, albeit creating a different one), and have a social impact. However, in the context of energy production, they are amazing. They can start and stop as fast as loaded thermal plants (without the readiness fuel consumption cost), they are 100% renewable, provide aquifers for collecting urban water and provide the best energy storage/temporal load balancing technology today.

galfarragem 8y ago

Empirically, these high energy prices seem good: it leads to less energy waste and allow investment in more expensive but cleaner energy sources. However if energy prices rise too much it can hurt quality of life: e.g. home heating/cooling in Portugal is, at most, spartan.