21 ms·

A Wandering Mind Is an Unhappy Mind (2010) [pdf]

231 points by dnetesn 9y ago

sporkologist 9y ago
Oh great, one more thing to worry about.
- tkjef 9y ago
  already thinking about something else.
wpasc 9y ago
I'm worried about how I ended up reading this story...
justboxing 9y ago
> In a paper pessimistically titled “A wandering mind is an unhappy mind,” Harvard psychologists Matthew Killingsworth and Daniel Gilbert reported that people felt less happy when their minds strayed from the task at hand, even when they were dwelling on pleasant topics—and even when the task itself was not enjoyable. The Paper is a much better read than the OP => https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/images/application_uploads/KILLINGSWORTH-WanderingMind.pdf https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/images/application_uploads/...
rambtampandor 9y ago
As a person struggling with ADHD, the answer is yes. It will make you lose your god given shit at your incapacity of staying on any given task, ranging from the simplest -like defecation- to tasks requiring executive functioning.
Apocryphon 9y ago
When I'm very sleep-deprived, I tend to be better able to focus on the present, and not worry about ambient anxiety-causing topics. My mind has less resources to wander as much as usual. Between that anecdotal experience, and previous stories about sleep deprivation as a treatment for depression, I wonder if there's something to be set about forcing your mind into a single-threaded mode, to avoid the usual distracting worries.
- Arbalest 9y ago
  Makes me wonder if there's a methodology of using full energy for creativity, and lower energy for times when more discipline would usually be required. Of course then there is the discipline needed to not fall into distraction traps then. I've experienced sleep deprived productivity before, but I have found it is hit and miss too.
  - Cthulhu_ 9y ago
    I think this is actually a natural part of a regular joe's working day. It's said in software development that you can only spend about four days on focused work - the creative part you mentioned. The rest is then spent on lower energy tasks, like communications, code cleanup, etc.
  - rangibaby 9y ago
    If I am doing something that requires craft or discipline I prefer to be well rested. When you are sleep deprived and productive remember that it is a high interest loan that you are going to have to pay back someday. My best creativity is when riding my bike in a relaxing place, in the shower, or what I call the half-sleep trance just before falling asleep.
    - Apocryphon 9y ago
      I don't think productivity while fatigued is good at all. But I do think that when one is tired, it may be possible to be less anxious than usual, since one's mind doesn't get distracted by tangential worries as much as usual.
      - fjsolwmv 9y ago
        Yes, but tired from exercise is different from tired from sleep deprivation.
  - taurath 9y ago
    Think of it this way, you probably have a lot more energy to use willpower to keep yourself focused when you are rested vs not. When you are so tired you’re physically incapable of focusing on anything else flow can also work, but sometimes the arrow is aimed wrong
ikeyany 9y ago
Sounds interesting. Perhaps I shall open it in another tab for later reading.
larschdk 9y ago
I occurs to me that being unfulfilled with what you are currently doing is what leads to mind wandering and unhappiness, rather than mind wandering itself being the cause of unhappiness. Mind wandering is a signal that you aren't having fun.
- ycombinete 9y ago
  This is not necessarily true. This is especially because tasks that we ultimately find fulfilling, are not often ones that we would define as "fun". Fulfilling, deep, concentration often requires hard work, and forceful concentration, on difficult things. The number of things that are fun, and deeply fulfilling are few and far between.
threatofrain 9y ago
But mild unhappiness also predicts behavioral variability.
dschuetz 9y ago
There's a plenty of occasions, causes and distractions to make your mind wander. To me personally the most prominent ones are when reading a book (which is also the most infuriating) and while riding some sort of public transport. The latter one helps me to reduce head buzz which is generated by randomly reading HN posts or working on a demanding task. Reading a book, where I actually need to concentrate on the book, some contents generate occasional mind branches. That means, I continue reading, but I think about something else triggered by what's in the book. Then I switch back to the book realizing "Wait, where was I? I have no idea why I'm reading this, and now I skipped a whole page." When I make a long trip I also have a lot of time to think. So, my scope of thoughts grows and my mind wanders. Basically that's the mode which potentially might make me very happy or deeply unhappy. Because the scope expands from decisions made in the past to decisions to make in the future. And that's where it hurts most. Can anyone relate?
- acorkery 9y ago
  I can relate with the reading issue. I've occasionally read 2 pages of a book while thinking of something else entirely, then realise I didn't absorb any of what I read. Not just tuning in and out - nothing.. I also can't skim text - need to almost pronounce all the phrases in my head, which is a pain when reading long books. I do read a lot, and have no literacy or comprehension issues - just seems like there's interference somewhere..
  - dschuetz 9y ago
    Skimming text doesn't work the same for everyone. The eyes literally scan a page for (basically random) nouns, buzzwords, verbs etc to kinda guess the content, regarding the context. The associative power of the brain (which is different in every person) fills in the gaps and usually guesses everything correctly. But when there is a context switch in between... well, the wrong guess can turn out catastrophically bad. I think, when my mind wanders off while still reading that means I got "bored" with the text by already knowing what's going to happen and I switch to associative thoughts instead. That's a problem for people who think highly associative instead of sequential. They need to apply or follow sequential logic actively instead of just doing it automatically, and that occasionally bores the hell of them, or exhaust them, because often they just know how things are. Hence the wandering mind in this case is a different one compared to the cases in the article.
Moodles 9y ago
I often think that a mind that wanders is a bit like the physical sensation of pain. In general, it is actually a very useful evolutionary advantage to experience pain, as well as to have a mind that can contemplate multiple possibilities, past, future and hypothetical events. This makes us succeed. But at the same time, pain is also a bit primitive in that it is useless and counterproductive when you already know you're sick or injured. Similarly, a wandering mind that is out of control is basically the primary cause of depression. It might be the case that as we evolved, a wandering mind was extremely useful to wander about where to look for food or how to hunter gather better, etc, but perhaps the mechanism is less well-equipped to function properly in modern day society. All just conjecture of course, no clue if backed up by any evidence :-)
throwaway437998 9y ago
I for one have an issue that only came to light after being in a relationship and have struggled with having to think about the facts of reality. Usually fine most days, but some dumb thing will connect the memory chain (like this HN post ironically) and down the spiral I go. It's the wandering that really does lead me astray.
- ycombinete 9y ago
  A shot in the dark here, but is it Retroactive Jealousy?
  - throwaway437998 9y ago
    That is correct. To give insight as to why it seems a little too close to hopeless, I feel the only solutions physically possible are just twisting words to make it seem okay but the hard facts remain at the end of the day. I say this maybe preemptively to your response, but I say it respectfully (or rather with no intension to disrespect your response) and, for my own health, wish to be proven wrong. For me in the end, it's those realities that come pay me a visit when the mind wanders. To add to it, I use to relish the fun and imagination a wandering mind brought to my day. Now it's nothing more than a pain point.
    - ycombinete 9y ago
      I have this pretty bad. I'll tell you this much, I have had it with partners with pretty extreme sexual histories, as well as those who have had almost no sexual histories. The "hard facts" themselves are not really the issue, the issue is us; our brains. We will find the "hard facts" pretty much no matter what, and no matter who. I've recently read this article on Reddit [0], and it has some excellent points/advice. Please read through it. If you do like what he has to say, then one way to follow this advice is to look into the concept of Mindfulness, specifically as put forward by Vipassana meditation [1]. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/OCD/comments/3oyh06/beat_retroactive_jealousy_top_tips_and_resources/ https://www.reddit.com/r/OCD/comments/3oyh06/beat_retroactiv... [1] I specify Vipassana because the term mindfulness has become a world of hipster woo in recent times, and just looking into the term alone will probably take you nowhere.
ajmarcic 9y ago
"Does a neurotic's mind wander?"
silveroriole 9y ago
I’m curious what this means for mainly intellectual jobs/skills. What’s the difference between mind wandering and, er, thinking? We can easily separate “programming” from “thinking about what’s for dinner,” and say the latter is wandering - but what about “could I do this another way? What was that technique I read about yesterday? But if I use that, then it might have this downside, which would mean x happens, and in scenario y that would be bad because z...” Is that wandering or focus? It’s certainly about what happened in the past and what will happen in the future (or will never happen at all). And it surely could make you unhappy. But it also seems very necessary!
- avenius 9y ago
  I'm not sure there really is a difference. I often find myself drifting off into code issues - I've had many an epiphany while trying hard to focus on something completely different.
- leggomylibro 9y ago
  Maybe that's part of why those sorts of jobs pay pretty well and have such high burnout rates.
Dowwie 9y ago
A wandering mind isn't always an unhappy mind. When undertaking "engaged wandering", great ideas may emerge. A wandering mind isn't wandering in an entirely random, chaotic fashion. If you're solving challenging problems, sometimes you may discover a novel solution by relaxing and letting your mind wander for a while. I've found mind wandering particularly useful while designing/architecting. However, aside from "engaged wandering", I've found a lot of pain from a wandering mind. I am working as a solo-preneur on a high-risk venture. Anxiety seems to be ever-present at the door step of my attention, waiting for the next moment that my mind wanders and anxiety may enter.
interfixus 9y ago
My mind rather determinedly started wandering after the very first sentence: >Unlike other animals, human beings spend a lot of time thinking about what is not going on around them Did they interview all these other animals, all of them, Noah's ark style? The proposition may well be true, but it's still a proposition presented a fact in what's presumably meant to look like a somewhat scientific report. My mind doesn't just wander. I lose all further interest.
aptidude187 9y ago
Not all who wander are lost. (I just had to)
unhappyMinds 9y ago
I wouldn't know what happiness is anymore, since I work for a living. I wasn't happy in school because attendance was compulsory, but I do remember summers being okay. It's been decades since I've enjoyed a "summer time" but once, when I lost my job for about 6 weeks, I was almost happy during week 5 until I landed a job offer, and spent week 6 stressing about returning to work. It took me a month to feel like a human being again, and just as I started to relax, it was taken away from me. So I disagree. A mind compelled to focus for unnatural reasons, onto details personally irrelevant to one's continued existence, under threat of being ostracized from civilized society (can't pay rent; out on the street) is an unhappy mind.
- saiya-jin 9y ago
  Meditate, exercise, travel to remote exotic places for as long as you can (this can be done actually pretty cheaply if you are a bit smart about it). Try changing your food (no sugary or simple carbs is a good start, plenty of fiber). Good 8 hours of sleep, enjoy a bit of sun every day. No drugs, legal or illegal (maybe a bit of pot if it makes you relax, but from your description it probably won't). If everybody would do most of this, we would live in paradise.
- neuronic 9y ago
  In return, I disagree with your perspective. While you are certainly right about stressful experiences related to employment and status in modern society, how exactly would this not have been a variation on the same problem for forms of life and society that we have observed so far? Today we might rush after digital clocks and adapt our waking lives to the never extinguished electric lights that encircle us, all while the power of science has still failed to reduce our working times which have been rising ever since the agricultural revolution. In earlier society people felt the need to please the Gods - whatever their job situation was. Even as lone hunter-gatherer your mind would be stressed because life itself continuously coerces you into doing inconvenient things in order to survive. You need things and they aren't just popping into your hands. Society made it massively easier to simply survive and not die. But the factor we are REALLY after and which stresses us out without end is status. For you, for your children, for the rest of your family. Until status doesn't matter, stress will exist. No matter how much we secure and automate in the rest of our lives, be it health or hunger.
amplexian 9y ago
"Although this ability is a remarkable evolutionary achievement that allows people to learn, reason, and plan, it may have an emotional cost" "Qui auget scientiam, auget et dolorem. Qui auget dolorem, auget et scientiam." Lucio Anneo Seneca - De providentia - AD 64 translated: who deepens his wisdom deepens also his sorrow. who deepens his sorrow deepens also his wisdom
bambax 9y ago
> Unlike other animals, human beings spend a lot of time thinking about what is not going on around them, contemplating events that happened in the past, might happen in the future, or will never happen at all. How do they know what animals think or don't think about? Many, many animals have lots of idle time where they do mostly nothing (not looking for food, or a mate, or anything); why would they not be dreaming or remembering things from the past??

231 points by dnetesn 9y ago

sporkologist 9y ago

Oh great, one more thing to worry about.

tkjef 9y ago
already thinking about something else.

wpasc 9y ago

I'm worried about how I ended up reading this story...

justboxing 9y ago

> In a paper pessimistically titled “A wandering mind is an unhappy mind,” Harvard psychologists Matthew Killingsworth and Daniel Gilbert reported that people felt less happy when their minds strayed from the task at hand, even when they were dwelling on pleasant topics—and even when the task itself was not enjoyable. The Paper is a much better read than the OP => https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/images/application_uploads/KILLINGSWORTH-WanderingMind.pdf https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/images/application_uploads/...

rambtampandor 9y ago

As a person struggling with ADHD, the answer is yes. It will make you lose your god given shit at your incapacity of staying on any given task, ranging from the simplest -like defecation- to tasks requiring executive functioning.

Apocryphon 9y ago

When I'm very sleep-deprived, I tend to be better able to focus on the present, and not worry about ambient anxiety-causing topics. My mind has less resources to wander as much as usual. Between that anecdotal experience, and previous stories about sleep deprivation as a treatment for depression, I wonder if there's something to be set about forcing your mind into a single-threaded mode, to avoid the usual distracting worries.

Arbalest 9y ago
Makes me wonder if there's a methodology of using full energy for creativity, and lower energy for times when more discipline would usually be required. Of course then there is the discipline needed to not fall into distraction traps then. I've experienced sleep deprived productivity before, but I have found it is hit and miss too.
- Cthulhu_ 9y ago
  I think this is actually a natural part of a regular joe's working day. It's said in software development that you can only spend about four days on focused work - the creative part you mentioned. The rest is then spent on lower energy tasks, like communications, code cleanup, etc.
- rangibaby 9y ago
  If I am doing something that requires craft or discipline I prefer to be well rested. When you are sleep deprived and productive remember that it is a high interest loan that you are going to have to pay back someday. My best creativity is when riding my bike in a relaxing place, in the shower, or what I call the half-sleep trance just before falling asleep.
  - Apocryphon 9y ago
    I don't think productivity while fatigued is good at all. But I do think that when one is tired, it may be possible to be less anxious than usual, since one's mind doesn't get distracted by tangential worries as much as usual.
    - fjsolwmv 9y ago
      Yes, but tired from exercise is different from tired from sleep deprivation.
- taurath 9y ago
  Think of it this way, you probably have a lot more energy to use willpower to keep yourself focused when you are rested vs not. When you are so tired you’re physically incapable of focusing on anything else flow can also work, but sometimes the arrow is aimed wrong

ikeyany 9y ago

Sounds interesting. Perhaps I shall open it in another tab for later reading.

larschdk 9y ago

I occurs to me that being unfulfilled with what you are currently doing is what leads to mind wandering and unhappiness, rather than mind wandering itself being the cause of unhappiness. Mind wandering is a signal that you aren't having fun.

ycombinete 9y ago
This is not necessarily true. This is especially because tasks that we ultimately find fulfilling, are not often ones that we would define as "fun". Fulfilling, deep, concentration often requires hard work, and forceful concentration, on difficult things. The number of things that are fun, and deeply fulfilling are few and far between.

threatofrain 9y ago

But mild unhappiness also predicts behavioral variability.

dschuetz 9y ago

There's a plenty of occasions, causes and distractions to make your mind wander. To me personally the most prominent ones are when reading a book (which is also the most infuriating) and while riding some sort of public transport. The latter one helps me to reduce head buzz which is generated by randomly reading HN posts or working on a demanding task. Reading a book, where I actually need to concentrate on the book, some contents generate occasional mind branches. That means, I continue reading, but I think about something else triggered by what's in the book. Then I switch back to the book realizing "Wait, where was I? I have no idea why I'm reading this, and now I skipped a whole page." When I make a long trip I also have a lot of time to think. So, my scope of thoughts grows and my mind wanders. Basically that's the mode which potentially might make me very happy or deeply unhappy. Because the scope expands from decisions made in the past to decisions to make in the future. And that's where it hurts most. Can anyone relate?

acorkery 9y ago
I can relate with the reading issue. I've occasionally read 2 pages of a book while thinking of something else entirely, then realise I didn't absorb any of what I read. Not just tuning in and out - nothing.. I also can't skim text - need to almost pronounce all the phrases in my head, which is a pain when reading long books. I do read a lot, and have no literacy or comprehension issues - just seems like there's interference somewhere..
- dschuetz 9y ago
  Skimming text doesn't work the same for everyone. The eyes literally scan a page for (basically random) nouns, buzzwords, verbs etc to kinda guess the content, regarding the context. The associative power of the brain (which is different in every person) fills in the gaps and usually guesses everything correctly. But when there is a context switch in between... well, the wrong guess can turn out catastrophically bad. I think, when my mind wanders off while still reading that means I got "bored" with the text by already knowing what's going to happen and I switch to associative thoughts instead. That's a problem for people who think highly associative instead of sequential. They need to apply or follow sequential logic actively instead of just doing it automatically, and that occasionally bores the hell of them, or exhaust them, because often they just know how things are. Hence the wandering mind in this case is a different one compared to the cases in the article.

Moodles 9y ago

I often think that a mind that wanders is a bit like the physical sensation of pain. In general, it is actually a very useful evolutionary advantage to experience pain, as well as to have a mind that can contemplate multiple possibilities, past, future and hypothetical events. This makes us succeed. But at the same time, pain is also a bit primitive in that it is useless and counterproductive when you already know you're sick or injured. Similarly, a wandering mind that is out of control is basically the primary cause of depression. It might be the case that as we evolved, a wandering mind was extremely useful to wander about where to look for food or how to hunter gather better, etc, but perhaps the mechanism is less well-equipped to function properly in modern day society. All just conjecture of course, no clue if backed up by any evidence :-)

throwaway437998 9y ago

I for one have an issue that only came to light after being in a relationship and have struggled with having to think about the facts of reality. Usually fine most days, but some dumb thing will connect the memory chain (like this HN post ironically) and down the spiral I go. It's the wandering that really does lead me astray.

ycombinete 9y ago
A shot in the dark here, but is it Retroactive Jealousy?
- throwaway437998 9y ago
  That is correct. To give insight as to why it seems a little too close to hopeless, I feel the only solutions physically possible are just twisting words to make it seem okay but the hard facts remain at the end of the day. I say this maybe preemptively to your response, but I say it respectfully (or rather with no intension to disrespect your response) and, for my own health, wish to be proven wrong. For me in the end, it's those realities that come pay me a visit when the mind wanders. To add to it, I use to relish the fun and imagination a wandering mind brought to my day. Now it's nothing more than a pain point.
  - ycombinete 9y ago
    I have this pretty bad. I'll tell you this much, I have had it with partners with pretty extreme sexual histories, as well as those who have had almost no sexual histories. The "hard facts" themselves are not really the issue, the issue is us; our brains. We will find the "hard facts" pretty much no matter what, and no matter who. I've recently read this article on Reddit [0], and it has some excellent points/advice. Please read through it. If you do like what he has to say, then one way to follow this advice is to look into the concept of Mindfulness, specifically as put forward by Vipassana meditation [1]. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/OCD/comments/3oyh06/beat_retroactive_jealousy_top_tips_and_resources/ https://www.reddit.com/r/OCD/comments/3oyh06/beat_retroactiv... [1] I specify Vipassana because the term mindfulness has become a world of hipster woo in recent times, and just looking into the term alone will probably take you nowhere.

ajmarcic 9y ago

"Does a neurotic's mind wander?"

silveroriole 9y ago

I’m curious what this means for mainly intellectual jobs/skills. What’s the difference between mind wandering and, er, thinking? We can easily separate “programming” from “thinking about what’s for dinner,” and say the latter is wandering - but what about “could I do this another way? What was that technique I read about yesterday? But if I use that, then it might have this downside, which would mean x happens, and in scenario y that would be bad because z...” Is that wandering or focus? It’s certainly about what happened in the past and what will happen in the future (or will never happen at all). And it surely could make you unhappy. But it also seems very necessary!

avenius 9y ago
I'm not sure there really is a difference. I often find myself drifting off into code issues - I've had many an epiphany while trying hard to focus on something completely different.
leggomylibro 9y ago
Maybe that's part of why those sorts of jobs pay pretty well and have such high burnout rates.

Dowwie 9y ago

A wandering mind isn't always an unhappy mind. When undertaking "engaged wandering", great ideas may emerge. A wandering mind isn't wandering in an entirely random, chaotic fashion. If you're solving challenging problems, sometimes you may discover a novel solution by relaxing and letting your mind wander for a while. I've found mind wandering particularly useful while designing/architecting. However, aside from "engaged wandering", I've found a lot of pain from a wandering mind. I am working as a solo-preneur on a high-risk venture. Anxiety seems to be ever-present at the door step of my attention, waiting for the next moment that my mind wanders and anxiety may enter.

interfixus 9y ago

My mind rather determinedly started wandering after the very first sentence: >Unlike other animals, human beings spend a lot of time thinking about what is not going on around them Did they interview all these other animals, all of them, Noah's ark style? The proposition may well be true, but it's still a proposition presented a fact in what's presumably meant to look like a somewhat scientific report. My mind doesn't just wander. I lose all further interest.

aptidude187 9y ago

Not all who wander are lost. (I just had to)

unhappyMinds 9y ago

I wouldn't know what happiness is anymore, since I work for a living. I wasn't happy in school because attendance was compulsory, but I do remember summers being okay. It's been decades since I've enjoyed a "summer time" but once, when I lost my job for about 6 weeks, I was almost happy during week 5 until I landed a job offer, and spent week 6 stressing about returning to work. It took me a month to feel like a human being again, and just as I started to relax, it was taken away from me. So I disagree. A mind compelled to focus for unnatural reasons, onto details personally irrelevant to one's continued existence, under threat of being ostracized from civilized society (can't pay rent; out on the street) is an unhappy mind.

saiya-jin 9y ago
Meditate, exercise, travel to remote exotic places for as long as you can (this can be done actually pretty cheaply if you are a bit smart about it). Try changing your food (no sugary or simple carbs is a good start, plenty of fiber). Good 8 hours of sleep, enjoy a bit of sun every day. No drugs, legal or illegal (maybe a bit of pot if it makes you relax, but from your description it probably won't). If everybody would do most of this, we would live in paradise.
neuronic 9y ago
In return, I disagree with your perspective. While you are certainly right about stressful experiences related to employment and status in modern society, how exactly would this not have been a variation on the same problem for forms of life and society that we have observed so far? Today we might rush after digital clocks and adapt our waking lives to the never extinguished electric lights that encircle us, all while the power of science has still failed to reduce our working times which have been rising ever since the agricultural revolution. In earlier society people felt the need to please the Gods - whatever their job situation was. Even as lone hunter-gatherer your mind would be stressed because life itself continuously coerces you into doing inconvenient things in order to survive. You need things and they aren't just popping into your hands. Society made it massively easier to simply survive and not die. But the factor we are REALLY after and which stresses us out without end is status. For you, for your children, for the rest of your family. Until status doesn't matter, stress will exist. No matter how much we secure and automate in the rest of our lives, be it health or hunger.

amplexian 9y ago

"Although this ability is a remarkable evolutionary achievement that allows people to learn, reason, and plan, it may have an emotional cost" "Qui auget scientiam, auget et dolorem. Qui auget dolorem, auget et scientiam." Lucio Anneo Seneca - De providentia - AD 64 translated: who deepens his wisdom deepens also his sorrow. who deepens his sorrow deepens also his wisdom

bambax 9y ago

> Unlike other animals, human beings spend a lot of time thinking about what is not going on around them, contemplating events that happened in the past, might happen in the future, or will never happen at all. How do they know what animals think or don't think about? Many, many animals have lots of idle time where they do mostly nothing (not looking for food, or a mate, or anything); why would they not be dreaming or remembering things from the past??