4 ms·

Well, Irish or Italian weren’t brought into slavery, and locked up for >100 years. If it was white people making it difficult for other races to get in, Asian

Well, Irish or Italian weren’t brought into slavery, and locked up for >100 years. If it was white people making it difficult for other races to get in, Asian and Indian people would have difficulty getting into higher classes as well. Also, if I’m not mistaken, African Americans are 10% of US population. Since there were only 2-3 generations since the Civil Movement, even with 10% of each generation moving one class higher, the expected number of African Americans would be ~3% in middle class and close to zero in the upper class. So saying that there are very few African Americans in middle class is not a sign of racism. Irish and Italian had 20 generations of a head start.

rayiner 9y ago
> Since there were only 2-3 generations since the Civil Movement > So saying that there are very few African Americans in middle class is not a sign of racism. I cannot figure out how to reconcile these statements.
- wjnc 9y ago
  He is making a statement akin to a growth process: wealth and social position accumulate over time and need many generations to come to fruition in that argument. I think the Asian example vs A-A in the US is a counterexample to this argument.
  - rayiner 9y ago
    Right, and african americans have had many more generarions to accumulate it compared to irish americans or asian americans, right?
    - Retric 9y ago
      Only if you ignore the social components. Immigrant groups tend to create support structures that aid newer immigrants from the same group. This is most powerful for groups who don't speak the native language but still impact social norms and networking. The first wave of Asian immigrants significantly predated the civil rights movement.
      - macintux 9y ago
        > Immigrant groups tend to create support structures that aid newer immigrants from the same group. That's a very important point I hadn't considered. Success is almost always predicated on strong community and family support, something which slavery was explicitly designed to suppress.
        dragonwriter 9y ago
        > Right, and african americans have had many more generarions to accumulate it compared to irish americans or asian americans, right? Slavery, sure, but also lots of post-slavery policy, especially Jim Crow laws in the South.
      - rayiner 9y ago
        > Only if you ignore the social components Like racism? The point is that, contrary to OP's conjecture, you can't explain this situation without accounting for racism. @kolinko's unstated premise is that there was racism, which explains why African Americans are behind despite being here so much longer than Irish or Italian Americans, but that there no longer is racism, as of the last 2-3 generations.
  - djtriptych 9y ago
    This is just another way of saying historical racism has had no effect on present day A-A wealth. Not remotely true, not supported by any evidence, but very important for some to believe and promote.
cmurf 9y ago
You should check out the one-drop rule. It is uniquely American, and it uniquely targeted African Americans for generations. It means even the smallest amount of African blood in your lineage made you fully Negro, and subject to all the class, legal and racial demotion that entailed. Most African American families have been in the United States before it was the United States. Slave importation was made illegal in 1808, before the largest waves of Irish and English. Most white families trace their lineage to immigrants of the mid-1800's, where most black families trace their families well before the signing of the Declaration of Independence. But no other ethic group experienced resistance by natives to integrate throughout reconstruction, and then the regression that began with Jim Crow laws at the end of reconstruction and culminated in the Civil Rights movements of the 1950's. Not merely a remembrance of history, but a glorified nostalgic reverence for the Confederacy, starting in the early 1900's, is uniquely directed at African Americans.

rayiner 9y ago

> Since there were only 2-3 generations since the Civil Movement > So saying that there are very few African Americans in middle class is not a sign of racism. I cannot figure out how to reconcile these statements.

wjnc 9y ago
He is making a statement akin to a growth process: wealth and social position accumulate over time and need many generations to come to fruition in that argument. I think the Asian example vs A-A in the US is a counterexample to this argument.
- rayiner 9y ago
  Right, and african americans have had many more generarions to accumulate it compared to irish americans or asian americans, right?
  - Retric 9y ago
    Only if you ignore the social components. Immigrant groups tend to create support structures that aid newer immigrants from the same group. This is most powerful for groups who don't speak the native language but still impact social norms and networking. The first wave of Asian immigrants significantly predated the civil rights movement.
    - macintux 9y ago
      > Immigrant groups tend to create support structures that aid newer immigrants from the same group. That's a very important point I hadn't considered. Success is almost always predicated on strong community and family support, something which slavery was explicitly designed to suppress.
      - dragonwriter 9y ago
        > Right, and african americans have had many more generarions to accumulate it compared to irish americans or asian americans, right? Slavery, sure, but also lots of post-slavery policy, especially Jim Crow laws in the South.
    - rayiner 9y ago
      > Only if you ignore the social components Like racism? The point is that, contrary to OP's conjecture, you can't explain this situation without accounting for racism. @kolinko's unstated premise is that there was racism, which explains why African Americans are behind despite being here so much longer than Irish or Italian Americans, but that there no longer is racism, as of the last 2-3 generations.
- djtriptych 9y ago
  This is just another way of saying historical racism has had no effect on present day A-A wealth. Not remotely true, not supported by any evidence, but very important for some to believe and promote.

cmurf 9y ago

You should check out the one-drop rule. It is uniquely American, and it uniquely targeted African Americans for generations. It means even the smallest amount of African blood in your lineage made you fully Negro, and subject to all the class, legal and racial demotion that entailed. Most African American families have been in the United States before it was the United States. Slave importation was made illegal in 1808, before the largest waves of Irish and English. Most white families trace their lineage to immigrants of the mid-1800's, where most black families trace their families well before the signing of the Declaration of Independence. But no other ethic group experienced resistance by natives to integrate throughout reconstruction, and then the regression that began with Jim Crow laws at the end of reconstruction and culminated in the Civil Rights movements of the 1950's. Not merely a remembrance of history, but a glorified nostalgic reverence for the Confederacy, starting in the early 1900's, is uniquely directed at African Americans.