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It's a real shame Puerto Rico is plagued with corruption resulting in poor infrastructure.

by mieseratte 9y ago

drb91 9y ago
...and ungodly debt. The situation is massively worse than Hurricane Katrina ever was.
- mieseratte 9y ago
  Wonder how they got that debt...
- rdl 9y ago
  Less debt per capita than the US. The sad thing is most of the debt was post the 1996 US tax change when the US Government (President Clinton + Republican Congress) decided to phase out the pharma/manufacturing special deal for Puerto Rico. The government of PR basically didn't do much to try to replace that industry until 2006 when it actually left, then started massive borrowing to make up for the shortfall (operating expenses, not capital spending), then 2008 financial problems happened and it kept compounding. The hurricane was comparatively minor. PR people also engaged in protests bordering on terrorism (and some in outright terrorism) in the US or against US entities in the 20th century, and this colored the US-PR relationship. Most recently the Puerto Rico Vieques range protests caused the entire US military to basically pull out of PR, costing 6000+ jobs. In 2012 they put in place a bunch of new tax credits for businesses and individuals, and enhanced them in 2017. It may be too little, too late, but combined with privatizing the power grid and a bunch of other capital investment, it's a better outlook today than it was in 2006. The ~$70B in debt is a big problem but it can be restructured; what matters the most is that the economy actually works so there is some surplus to service and pay down the debt.
  - CobrastanJorji 9y ago
    > The government of PR basically didn't do much to try to replace that industry. We took away their magical money machine and those lazy bastards didn't even bother replacing it. Why do they keep themselves so poor‽
dschuetz 9y ago
Puerto Rico is an unincorporated part of the US; it is controlled by the US government. So, basically, the US are responsible for that corruption?
- mieseratte 9y ago
  > So, basically, the US are responsible for that corruption? reply Corrupt local politicians.
  - knieveltech 9y ago
    Because corrupt local politicians certainly have control over FEMA and other federal agencies that could be tasked with lending assistance.
    - rdl 9y ago
      The infrastructure was that bad before the hurricane. The hurricane pushed it over the edge, but the real problem was underinvestment (and malinvestment) in capital plant, maintenance, etc. for decades. The best illustration: telco sector was pretty comprehensively privatized (at the cost of riots and almost civil insurrection) in ~2000. I can get gigabit fiber in much of PR for $60-80/mo, and service (cell and copper voice and cable and fiber) is competitive and largely was restored promptly. There are places on the island where cable providers have to run 20-35KW gensets to power their equipment still, but the Internet is up. There are rural areas where it's still down, but there is decent LTE basically everywhere. Compared to the power network, it's great (and when it's not hurricane damaged, is far better than the US telco situation generally) FEMA/USG response was weak in the first month, but part of that was just the genuine logistical difficulty of supporting Puerto Rico vs. a contiguous state. The scale of the USG response from December 2017 onward has been beyond what I would have expected, and probably pushing the limits of statutory authority for political reasons.
- monochromatic 9y ago
  If some podunk county court judge takes a bribe, do we blame the federal government for that too?
shepardrtc 9y ago
Puerto Rico is a part of the United States and its real shame that we don't do more to help it.
- mieseratte 9y ago
  Puerto Ricans are exempt from income tax. Why should we?
  - knieveltech 9y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics
  - kbenson 9y ago
    Puerto Ricans do pay other Federal taxes. They also get less Federal funding per-capita than the national average. They are U.S. citizens. It is a U.S. territory. They are required to follow U.S. Federal law, yet do not have representation within the U.S. government. Even if they were not U.S. citizens, since they are not autonomous and allowed to govern themselves entirely, the U.S. has some responsibility over any situation Puerto Rico finds itself in. If you think they should be paying income taxes, tell your congressperson to stop dragging their feet and respond to the requests for statehood Puerto Rico's government has made multiple times.
  - Jtsummers 9y ago
    They also don't get the federal vote (unless they move to a US state). Taxation without representation was one of the primary rallying cries of the American Revolution. Would be quite ironic to then go and tax people and simultaneously deny them representation.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > Puerto Rico is a part of the United States and its real shame that we don't do more to help it. Puerto Rico is a colony of the United States, and the purpose of a colonial relationship isn't for the imperial power to aid the colony. That's sometimes a side effect, but the intent is for benefit to flow the other way. If Puerto Rico were part of, rather than a territory subject to, the United States, they would have representation in both houses of Congress and in the Electoral College.
dang 9y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16794356 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16794356 and marked it off-topic.

It's a real shame Puerto Rico is plagued with corruption resulting in poor infrastructure.

drb91 9y ago

...and ungodly debt. The situation is massively worse than Hurricane Katrina ever was.

mieseratte 9y ago
Wonder how they got that debt...
rdl 9y ago
Less debt per capita than the US. The sad thing is most of the debt was post the 1996 US tax change when the US Government (President Clinton + Republican Congress) decided to phase out the pharma/manufacturing special deal for Puerto Rico. The government of PR basically didn't do much to try to replace that industry until 2006 when it actually left, then started massive borrowing to make up for the shortfall (operating expenses, not capital spending), then 2008 financial problems happened and it kept compounding. The hurricane was comparatively minor. PR people also engaged in protests bordering on terrorism (and some in outright terrorism) in the US or against US entities in the 20th century, and this colored the US-PR relationship. Most recently the Puerto Rico Vieques range protests caused the entire US military to basically pull out of PR, costing 6000+ jobs. In 2012 they put in place a bunch of new tax credits for businesses and individuals, and enhanced them in 2017. It may be too little, too late, but combined with privatizing the power grid and a bunch of other capital investment, it's a better outlook today than it was in 2006. The ~$70B in debt is a big problem but it can be restructured; what matters the most is that the economy actually works so there is some surplus to service and pay down the debt.
- CobrastanJorji 9y ago
  > The government of PR basically didn't do much to try to replace that industry. We took away their magical money machine and those lazy bastards didn't even bother replacing it. Why do they keep themselves so poor‽

dschuetz 9y ago

Puerto Rico is an unincorporated part of the US; it is controlled by the US government. So, basically, the US are responsible for that corruption?

mieseratte 9y ago
> So, basically, the US are responsible for that corruption? reply Corrupt local politicians.
- knieveltech 9y ago
  Because corrupt local politicians certainly have control over FEMA and other federal agencies that could be tasked with lending assistance.
  - rdl 9y ago
    The infrastructure was that bad before the hurricane. The hurricane pushed it over the edge, but the real problem was underinvestment (and malinvestment) in capital plant, maintenance, etc. for decades. The best illustration: telco sector was pretty comprehensively privatized (at the cost of riots and almost civil insurrection) in ~2000. I can get gigabit fiber in much of PR for $60-80/mo, and service (cell and copper voice and cable and fiber) is competitive and largely was restored promptly. There are places on the island where cable providers have to run 20-35KW gensets to power their equipment still, but the Internet is up. There are rural areas where it's still down, but there is decent LTE basically everywhere. Compared to the power network, it's great (and when it's not hurricane damaged, is far better than the US telco situation generally) FEMA/USG response was weak in the first month, but part of that was just the genuine logistical difficulty of supporting Puerto Rico vs. a contiguous state. The scale of the USG response from December 2017 onward has been beyond what I would have expected, and probably pushing the limits of statutory authority for political reasons.
monochromatic 9y ago
If some podunk county court judge takes a bribe, do we blame the federal government for that too?

shepardrtc 9y ago

Puerto Rico is a part of the United States and its real shame that we don't do more to help it.

mieseratte 9y ago
Puerto Ricans are exempt from income tax. Why should we?
- knieveltech 9y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics
- kbenson 9y ago
  Puerto Ricans do pay other Federal taxes. They also get less Federal funding per-capita than the national average. They are U.S. citizens. It is a U.S. territory. They are required to follow U.S. Federal law, yet do not have representation within the U.S. government. Even if they were not U.S. citizens, since they are not autonomous and allowed to govern themselves entirely, the U.S. has some responsibility over any situation Puerto Rico finds itself in. If you think they should be paying income taxes, tell your congressperson to stop dragging their feet and respond to the requests for statehood Puerto Rico's government has made multiple times.
- Jtsummers 9y ago
  They also don't get the federal vote (unless they move to a US state). Taxation without representation was one of the primary rallying cries of the American Revolution. Would be quite ironic to then go and tax people and simultaneously deny them representation.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> Puerto Rico is a part of the United States and its real shame that we don't do more to help it. Puerto Rico is a colony of the United States, and the purpose of a colonial relationship isn't for the imperial power to aid the colony. That's sometimes a side effect, but the intent is for benefit to flow the other way. If Puerto Rico were part of, rather than a territory subject to, the United States, they would have representation in both houses of Congress and in the Electoral College.

dang 9y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16794356 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16794356 and marked it off-topic.