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I can't wait for the day that phone operating systems development environments are a docker pull away. It's encouraging to see Google approaching my ideal workf
by quantumwoke 9y ago
I can't wait for the day that phone operating systems development environments are a docker pull away. It's encouraging to see Google approaching my ideal workflow using containerisation. Apple systems are great until you run into the garden walls and are forced to use closed-source single platform software like Xcode. Chrome OS and Android are a lot more open in many respects.
Hopefully efforts like this continue with Fuchsia and other Google products.
- jacksmith21006 9y agoYou have it with ChromeOS 67. Docker without having to put in developer.
- xrd 9y agoCan you share a specific example of this? I got lost in the parent article but was that in there?
- jacksmith21006 9y agoYes. Boot, launch chrome tab, type Ctrl alt t, then type vmc start dev. You have a GNU/Linux kernel which you can do whatever you want. For more info visit Reddit and the Crostini subreddit. You can use Steam or really whatever.
- jacksmith21006 9y agoWhat is happening is Google has enabled the KVM. You are using a second Linux kernel and can do whatever safely and away from the ChromeOS Linux kernel. Even GUI works as forwarded to ChromeOS. So start xclock and opens.
- bubblethink 9y ago>Even GUI works as forwarded to ChromeOS. So start xclock and opens. What is graphics performance like for the guest ? Does this use gpu virtualization (somewhat supported for intel gpus in recent kernels) ?
- beagle3 9y agoIs it also enabled in old ARM only chrome books? Mine is in dev mode and I would switch it back to regular if I can run kvm inside.
- jacksmith21006 9y agoNo not yet. It is also only on Pixel books right now. It uses hardware supports VM so possible on ARM. But realize this losses cross platform support inheriently so you would have to use ARM gnu/Linux binaries.
- jjuel 9y agoSteam is actually still a WIP. When I tried to install it following the Debian instructions (inside a Stretch container) I was unable to do so. It currently does not support the i386 arch necessary. Maybe that has changed since I tried, but it was not working for me a week or so ago.
- jacksmith21006 9y agoThere is instruction on how to use Steam on ChromeOS 67 with a Pixel Book on /r/crostini. Just visit the subreddit. https://www.reddit.com/r/Crostini/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Crostini/
- jjuel 9y agoI had read that, but from what I read they get it to launch steam, but cannot run a game yet. So still a WIP.
- jacksmith21006 9y agoThere are people on Reddit claiming they have it working.
- krzyk 9y agoWhat do you mean by "developer" in that sentence? Mostly when I see "developer" it means a person that develops code - a programmer, but here it doesn't make sense in your sentence.
- devonbleak 9y agodeveloper mode in ChromeOS
- jaredmosley 9y agoI believe he's saying: without having to put the chromebook into developer mode. A mode that allows developers to do more on their chromebook, such as using a terminal, which is not accessible in regular mode.
- jacksmith21006 9y agoWell it is a bit confusing as the same word used in two places. There is putting your Chromebook in developer mode which removes safety checks and a way to use GNU/Linux on a CB. You then can install Crouton. But then there is putting a CB on the developer channel or the Canary channel which is completely different. I am currently using both as I can then see what is happening with the host OS while using the new VM capabilities with my PixelBook.
- GoneToThailand 9y agoDocker is quite closed as well, so I am not sure if it is a good step in the right direction.
- kenny_r 9y agoCould you tell us exactly which part of Docker you think is "quite closed"? Docker (Moby) is licensed under Apache 2.0, and so is containerd, the default runtime.
- GoneToThailand 9y agoA license unfortunately doesn’t tell the truth, but their actions. They’re extremely closed.
- coldtea 9y agoA license means that "their actions" don't matter.
- moosingin3space 9y agoWhat actions?
- lmm 9y agoThe tight coupling to systemd which refuses to standardise any "internal" interfaces and insists on taking over the entirety of one's system. You can't run Docker if you're not running systemd, you can't run systemd if you're not running udevd and logd and so on, you can't run those if you're not running not just Linux but essentially only the "current" version of Linux, and if you ever implement a compatible replacement for one of those pieces they'll break compatibility with it in the next minor release. If Docker were an open system it would already be running natively (not that ridiculous docker-in-a-vm thing) on Solaris, FreeBSD (which have offered similar functionality for decades), and probably MacOS by now. Instead their maintainers are actively hostile to portability patches as a matter of policy.
- 9y ago
- txsh 9y agoApple systems are great precisely because they’re single platform and closed-source. It would be unfortunate if that changed.
- saagarjha 9y agoI don’t see how you arrived at that conclusion. Why is the software not being open source a benefit?
- 928jf0923 9y agoIs software that is open sourced the only software that people should find value in?
- freehunter 9y agoSome people have different tastes. I know a lot of people who drive a Honda because it's easy for them to repair on their own, and parts are cheap. I know others who drive a BMW even though it's difficult and expensive to repair, because they would never repair it themselves so it doesn't matter. They value the experience of driving "the ultimate driving machine" even if it costs more and is harder to repair. Some people prefer open platforms that they can customize and tinker with. Some people prefer closed platforms where the defaults are good enough and you never have to open the hood. Neither of those preferences are more wrong than the other one. It's just a preference.
- saagarjha 9y agoBut all things being equal, generally I'd say that software that allows you tinker is probably better. The fact that the freedom exists doesn't mean you have to take advantage of it, but it's nice that it's there.
- MBlume 9y agoThe specific issue under discussion has little to nothing to do with user experience though. It wouldn't change the iOS user experience if an iOS dev environment was available for Linux, or if you could test your iOS code on a jenkins server running on an ec2 instance.
- skrowl 9y agoTo be fair you can't go very far without running into garden walls in Apple land. It doesn't just apply to development. Want to change your launcher / dialer / etc? WALL! Want to run a different web browser (an ACTUAL web browser complete with JS / CSS engine). WALL! Want emulators or adult-themed apps? WALL! Want to develop for iOS or macOS on Windows or Linux? WALL! The list goes on and on...
- millstone 9y agoChromeOS is significantly more locked down than macOS, developer mode notwithstanding. Firefox for iOS may use WebKit, but Firefox for ChromeOS isn't even a thing.
- eigenvector 9y agoConversely, a ChromeOS device is much less locked down than an iOS device, since you can run full Linux (with root) in a chroot on a ChromeOS device.
- millstone 9y agoWe may be doomed to an infinite regress here. After all, a Chromecast is more locked down than an iPad... Someone considering running chrooted Linux on a Chromebook is going to be more interested in a Mac than an iPad, so IMO that's the more useful comparison. I did run Crouton on a ChromeOS device and came to regret it. ChromeOS devices don't run a mainline kernel, they run something that Google provides which eventually stops receiving updates. The audio app I wanted to run required a newer kernel, and there was no way to get it short of forward-porting a bunch of device support and building it myself. IMO for Linux development, users are better served by a real Linux laptop than by a ChromeOS chimera.
- jsight 9y agoI would prefer a powerful ChromeOS device with the ability to run Linux containers over an iPad or a Mac. I suspect that I'm not the only developer who thinks that way. But I sort of agree with you too. I'm running Linux desktops rather than Chrome machines for that reason.
- tomaskafka 9y agoThis. Apple, just give me a console access on iPad with keyboard. Heck, I could even run it virtualized, if Apple didn't forbid it :(.
- zer0zzz 9y agoI don’t even want that. I just want a keyboard that doesn’t blow. iOS provides no key remapping and most iPad keyboard covers don’t have esc keys. The only way for me to type semi-fluidly on an iPad in a terminal is to hook up one of those happy hacker keyboards to a hand held scientific usb-to-Bluetooth adapter.
- primitur 9y agoI have found a way around all this, which nevertheless requires a thin layer of interaction with the walled garden, and this to put everything in a VM, expose only the things that need to be exposed from the host OS, and run a common framework across all possible platforms. Believe it or not, there are a lot of these kinds of projects out there, mostly obscure, probably by necessity because in fact it is a lot of work to maintain such a system. But, due to the abhorrent nature of the OS vendors, sleeping at the wheel, there is no choice other than to build another, OS-like, system on top. And where that is always happening, and still will for quite a while I hope, is in the games engine department. Sooner or later, games engines become operating systems, become hosts for spreadsheets and collaboration and other such nonsense... All this is to say, I have my xcode builds running in a VMWare container, they're safely backed up and replaceable, etc., and all they do anyway is build the target hosts: android, ios, linux, windows, macos, etc. for the .. separated through an abstraction layer .. application. The use of Lua, I think, is a good example. Lua on all the mobile platforms, would deflate the whole thing...