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Signal. It is at least as secure as Whats App by design, has pratically the same interface and also a Chrome-based desktop app that works untethered from the ph

by aylons 9y ago

Signal. It is at least as secure as Whats App by design, has pratically the same interface and also a Chrome-based desktop app that works untethered from the phone app.

StavrosK 9y ago
It's also exactly as open as WhatsApp, but not as usable.
- blueplanet200 9y ago
  Signal is open source both client and server. To my knowledge the same isn't true for WhatsApp.
  - StavrosK 9y ago
    It's open source, but Moxie has said he doesn't want federation. I don't think he'd be okay with someone writing a third-party client, for example.
    - Vinnl 9y ago
      He doesn't, but only because of the maintenance burden that would bring: https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal/issues/37#issuecomment-217231557 https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal/issues/37#issueco... I'm sure if a third-party client would contribute to support the maintenance (both financially and in terms of the time and effort investment) he might be open to that, but obviously that's not going to happen.
      - pmlnr 9y ago
        Sure, burden. Like say, Pidgin is a burden to [x network]. Not allowing 3rd party is bad, it always is. It takes away choice.
    - tokenizerrr 9y ago
      Federation is a completely different story from a third-party client.
  - pmlnr 9y ago
    Open Source, relies only on Twilio, AWS, GMC, and Apple Push. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server/blob/master/config/sample.yml https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server/blob/master/confi...
- eganist 9y ago
  https://github.com/signalapp https://github.com/signalapp
lxglv 9y ago
Out of curiosity: I’ve noticed a long-term sceptical attitude to telegram in HN audience and have seen multiple arguments against it. Something like that their crypto can’t be trusted, that it’s not time-proven. Don’t you know any good source with some sort of domain expert explanation, why shouldn’t it be used or trusted? No intention to start any flame against Signal, only curiosity regarding telegram flaws. Personal point of view is also appreciated.
- soziawa 9y ago
  It's not even end to end encrypted by default. That's the main reason why you shouldn't use it.
  - StudentStuff 9y ago
    This right here, how can such a basic step to protect your users be skipped?
    - eitland 9y ago
      Same way as in email, banking etc? Also I find it puzzling that so many people here keeps on recommending WhatsApp over Telegram after all the lies from WhatsApps owner. Edit: While I have no way to verify this, AFAIK both Telegram and Gmail stores data and keys in ways that makes them hard to access by everyone except for the user. Telegram in particular say they do this by storing data and keys in different datacenters in different jurisdictions. Add to this that WhatsApp has had their fair share of issues as well before they started working with Moxie.
- raarts 9y ago
  It's Russian. You know, like: hand over the encryption keys or you, or someone you love will disappear.
  - kirillseva 9y ago
    Telegram is actually fighting the Russian government over the encryption keys, saying that it is impossible to hand them over (I assume this is for e2e encrypted secret chats). The consequence of this action is that they'll likely get banned (i.e. removed from app store). How much of this is a farce remains to be seen, since the whole nation, from casual users to small businesses to government employees use the app daily. As a Russian, I do appreciate the fear that the "russki" brand instills in your soul, but I think you are rightly being downvoted for jumping to conclusions simply based on nationality.
Zamicol 9y ago
I wish signal had a webapp.
- sashimy 9y ago
  It has a desktop app for MacOS, Linux and Windows. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Desktop https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Desktop
  - ktosobcy 9y ago
    It's as "native" and "desktop" as... well... ekhm: "Signal Desktop is an Electron application that links with your Signal Android or Signal iOS app."
- Spivak 9y ago
  Not very likely any time soon. There was a long debate about it and they decided that putting your trust entirely in the CA system and Signal's servers every time to not serve a malicious client that couldn't be validated by the user wasn't acceptable.
  - Zamicol 8y ago
    Why can't I self host a web app. I just don't want any more applications open. I'm CA's will be bypassed soon. There's a lot of brain attention on this.
pmlnr 9y ago
Signal relies on GCM, and needs a smartphone app. I'm failing to see the win.
- ce4 9y ago
  Not anymore since 3.30.0. Also CopperheadOS maintained a fork on their fdroid repo without the hard Google Play store dependency. https://copperhead.co/android/docs/usage_guide#signal https://copperhead.co/android/docs/usage_guide#signal
  - pmlnr 9y ago
    The more I dig into Signal, the more complicated everything with it is. Just go XMPP with OMEMO, so no hard smartphone dependency, no electron app monsters. Thankfully XMPP doesn't have a problem with 3rd party and federation. https://omemo.top/ https://omemo.top/
shlorn 9y ago
My friends switched from whatsapp to signal for day. We switched back after a matter of hours. We couldn't find a way to quote messages to reply to them, which is critical for group conversions where multiple threads are happening at once. Also there was no ability to @user to direct a message at a specific person. As for the app, there was unnecessary whitespace between messages--even using smallest font size. Usability vs unauditable security is tough calculus but I think technical people weigh security more then their less technical friends.
alerighi 9y ago
Signal has most of the problems that has WhatsApp: mainly the fact that it's dependent on a smartphone, yes you have a Chrome-based application that is the same as WhatsApp web, it's only a remote interface that connects to your phone. Telegram in my opinion is far better, it's completely cloud based, you can use it from whatever device you want, it has real desktop apps, you can send files, you have bots, channels, large groups, usernames, you name it. I don't get why using Signal, yes it's free software, also Telegram it is (ok, the server is proprietary but even if you have the source how can you be sure that what they release is what is running on the servers ? If you don't run your own server the source are useless), but I don't see other advantages, so why bother with a third messaging app ? I use WhatsApp for the large user base, and I use Telegram for the advanced features if I need them.
- narsil 9y ago
  Are you certain Signal is dependent on a phone? The new Signal desktop client I use seemed to send messages fine over in-flight wifi.
- aylons 9y ago
  No, Signal Desktop is NOT the same as WhatsApp web. You still need your phone for the initial setup (same as Telegram), but after that, the desktop app is untethered until de-authentication. Also, it has a much more praised security and cryptography than Telegram, is always encrypted (Telegram is only encrypted in secret chats) and has a much more secure codebase, with more open development (Telegram sometimes takes weeks to release source code), reproducible builds and a more transparent history. I do use Telegram (mainly for group chats), but I treat everything posted in it as I would treat a public forum like HN.

by aylons 9y ago

Signal. It is at least as secure as Whats App by design, has pratically the same interface and also a Chrome-based desktop app that works untethered from the phone app.

StavrosK 9y ago

It's also exactly as open as WhatsApp, but not as usable.

blueplanet200 9y ago
Signal is open source both client and server. To my knowledge the same isn't true for WhatsApp.
- StavrosK 9y ago
  It's open source, but Moxie has said he doesn't want federation. I don't think he'd be okay with someone writing a third-party client, for example.
  - Vinnl 9y ago
    He doesn't, but only because of the maintenance burden that would bring: https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal/issues/37#issuecomment-217231557 https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal/issues/37#issueco... I'm sure if a third-party client would contribute to support the maintenance (both financially and in terms of the time and effort investment) he might be open to that, but obviously that's not going to happen.
    - pmlnr 9y ago
      Sure, burden. Like say, Pidgin is a burden to [x network]. Not allowing 3rd party is bad, it always is. It takes away choice.
  - tokenizerrr 9y ago
    Federation is a completely different story from a third-party client.
- pmlnr 9y ago
  Open Source, relies only on Twilio, AWS, GMC, and Apple Push. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server/blob/master/config/sample.yml https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server/blob/master/confi...
eganist 9y ago
https://github.com/signalapp https://github.com/signalapp

lxglv 9y ago

Out of curiosity: I’ve noticed a long-term sceptical attitude to telegram in HN audience and have seen multiple arguments against it. Something like that their crypto can’t be trusted, that it’s not time-proven. Don’t you know any good source with some sort of domain expert explanation, why shouldn’t it be used or trusted? No intention to start any flame against Signal, only curiosity regarding telegram flaws. Personal point of view is also appreciated.

soziawa 9y ago
It's not even end to end encrypted by default. That's the main reason why you shouldn't use it.
- StudentStuff 9y ago
  This right here, how can such a basic step to protect your users be skipped?
  - eitland 9y ago
    Same way as in email, banking etc? Also I find it puzzling that so many people here keeps on recommending WhatsApp over Telegram after all the lies from WhatsApps owner. Edit: While I have no way to verify this, AFAIK both Telegram and Gmail stores data and keys in ways that makes them hard to access by everyone except for the user. Telegram in particular say they do this by storing data and keys in different datacenters in different jurisdictions. Add to this that WhatsApp has had their fair share of issues as well before they started working with Moxie.
raarts 9y ago
It's Russian. You know, like: hand over the encryption keys or you, or someone you love will disappear.
- kirillseva 9y ago
  Telegram is actually fighting the Russian government over the encryption keys, saying that it is impossible to hand them over (I assume this is for e2e encrypted secret chats). The consequence of this action is that they'll likely get banned (i.e. removed from app store). How much of this is a farce remains to be seen, since the whole nation, from casual users to small businesses to government employees use the app daily. As a Russian, I do appreciate the fear that the "russki" brand instills in your soul, but I think you are rightly being downvoted for jumping to conclusions simply based on nationality.

Zamicol 9y ago

I wish signal had a webapp.

sashimy 9y ago
It has a desktop app for MacOS, Linux and Windows. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Desktop https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Desktop
- ktosobcy 9y ago
  It's as "native" and "desktop" as... well... ekhm: "Signal Desktop is an Electron application that links with your Signal Android or Signal iOS app."
Spivak 9y ago
Not very likely any time soon. There was a long debate about it and they decided that putting your trust entirely in the CA system and Signal's servers every time to not serve a malicious client that couldn't be validated by the user wasn't acceptable.
- Zamicol 8y ago
  Why can't I self host a web app. I just don't want any more applications open. I'm CA's will be bypassed soon. There's a lot of brain attention on this.

pmlnr 9y ago

Signal relies on GCM, and needs a smartphone app. I'm failing to see the win.

ce4 9y ago
Not anymore since 3.30.0. Also CopperheadOS maintained a fork on their fdroid repo without the hard Google Play store dependency. https://copperhead.co/android/docs/usage_guide#signal https://copperhead.co/android/docs/usage_guide#signal
- pmlnr 9y ago
  The more I dig into Signal, the more complicated everything with it is. Just go XMPP with OMEMO, so no hard smartphone dependency, no electron app monsters. Thankfully XMPP doesn't have a problem with 3rd party and federation. https://omemo.top/ https://omemo.top/

shlorn 9y ago

My friends switched from whatsapp to signal for day. We switched back after a matter of hours. We couldn't find a way to quote messages to reply to them, which is critical for group conversions where multiple threads are happening at once. Also there was no ability to @user to direct a message at a specific person. As for the app, there was unnecessary whitespace between messages--even using smallest font size. Usability vs unauditable security is tough calculus but I think technical people weigh security more then their less technical friends.

alerighi 9y ago

Signal has most of the problems that has WhatsApp: mainly the fact that it's dependent on a smartphone, yes you have a Chrome-based application that is the same as WhatsApp web, it's only a remote interface that connects to your phone. Telegram in my opinion is far better, it's completely cloud based, you can use it from whatever device you want, it has real desktop apps, you can send files, you have bots, channels, large groups, usernames, you name it. I don't get why using Signal, yes it's free software, also Telegram it is (ok, the server is proprietary but even if you have the source how can you be sure that what they release is what is running on the servers ? If you don't run your own server the source are useless), but I don't see other advantages, so why bother with a third messaging app ? I use WhatsApp for the large user base, and I use Telegram for the advanced features if I need them.

narsil 9y ago
Are you certain Signal is dependent on a phone? The new Signal desktop client I use seemed to send messages fine over in-flight wifi.
aylons 9y ago
No, Signal Desktop is NOT the same as WhatsApp web. You still need your phone for the initial setup (same as Telegram), but after that, the desktop app is untethered until de-authentication. Also, it has a much more praised security and cryptography than Telegram, is always encrypted (Telegram is only encrypted in secret chats) and has a much more secure codebase, with more open development (Telegram sometimes takes weeks to release source code), reproducible builds and a more transparent history. I do use Telegram (mainly for group chats), but I treat everything posted in it as I would treat a public forum like HN.