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> The group of women who had the biggest post-baby pay gap compared with their husbands was, paradoxically, women who earned more than their husbands before hav

> The group of women who had the biggest post-baby pay gap compared with their husbands was, paradoxically, women who earned more than their husbands before having children. Yet you ignore that the article goes on to state that the biggest gaps were the ones that started with the women making more. It seems on average the couple is picking the wife to absorb the hit regardless of the paychecks.

kennywinker 9y ago
I did mention something about cultural biases, yes? Culture has its hooks deep. Given complete freedom economically, we still choose things based on what is "normal" or "expected".
- PurpleBoxDragon 9y ago
  And equal pay won't fix things like each gender having difference qualities they prefer in partners, on average. Nor will it fix things like career choice (studies have found that places with less economic freedom have better gender parity in picking careers). It may be possible some of this isn't cultural at all. Every other species on the planet has sexually dimorphic characteristics, so to we shouldn't assume that humans either don't, or even that the ones we do have would have no impact on any factors related to pay (including things like impacting what careers a person finds desirable).
  - kennywinker 9y ago
    You’d be surprised how much is cultural. Core beliefs, emotions, etc. In nature vs. nurture, with humans, comparative anthroplogy is pretty conclusive - there are VERY few things all humans do regaurdless of culture. “what do men do” or “what do women do” is so much more a function of history and how we’ve organized our society (aggricultural / industrial) than a product of in-built characteristics. I’m not saying there are no inherent differences, i’m just saying nobody knows what they are.
    - malvosenior 9y ago
      That's not true at all. One of the most obvious differences is physical strength. Pre-industrialization men were required for "heavy lifting". https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/4vcxd0/almost_all_men_are_stronger_than_almost_all_women/ https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/4vcxd0/alm... The ability to give birth is another obvious difference that has nothing to do with nurture but is directly relevant to the topic at hand.
      - kennywinker 9y ago
        There is a difference between who we are, and what we do. Most people work in jobs that do not require the kind of heavy lifting that depends on a sexual dimorphic advantage. Even in pre-industrial settings... tilling fields, harvesting crops, general farm work can almost entirely be done by men, women, and even children. Yes, there are differences between the average man and the average women physically. Height, muscle mass, etc. but that does not say much about what is a natural role and what is one that is a product of culture. Because we don’t spend, and probably never spent that much of our lives doing very heavy lifting or giving birth.
        malvosenior 9y ago
        Those were just a few examples off the top of my head, there are many more (I’m unaware of any female hunting societies for example, breast feeding is another obvious one...). Why do you think we evolved sexually dimorphic features if not to help us in specialized roles?
    - solidsnack9000 9y ago
      Actually, comparative anthropology has shown that many things are quite common across human societies: * patriliny, * the incest taboo, * relative prevalence of monogamy, even in societies that allow polygyny, * the universality of religion. Much of the "nuts and bolts" of human society are found to be shared cross culturally.
      - 9y ago

kennywinker 9y ago

I did mention something about cultural biases, yes? Culture has its hooks deep. Given complete freedom economically, we still choose things based on what is "normal" or "expected".

PurpleBoxDragon 9y ago
And equal pay won't fix things like each gender having difference qualities they prefer in partners, on average. Nor will it fix things like career choice (studies have found that places with less economic freedom have better gender parity in picking careers). It may be possible some of this isn't cultural at all. Every other species on the planet has sexually dimorphic characteristics, so to we shouldn't assume that humans either don't, or even that the ones we do have would have no impact on any factors related to pay (including things like impacting what careers a person finds desirable).
- kennywinker 9y ago
  You’d be surprised how much is cultural. Core beliefs, emotions, etc. In nature vs. nurture, with humans, comparative anthroplogy is pretty conclusive - there are VERY few things all humans do regaurdless of culture. “what do men do” or “what do women do” is so much more a function of history and how we’ve organized our society (aggricultural / industrial) than a product of in-built characteristics. I’m not saying there are no inherent differences, i’m just saying nobody knows what they are.
  - malvosenior 9y ago
    That's not true at all. One of the most obvious differences is physical strength. Pre-industrialization men were required for "heavy lifting". https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/4vcxd0/almost_all_men_are_stronger_than_almost_all_women/ https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/4vcxd0/alm... The ability to give birth is another obvious difference that has nothing to do with nurture but is directly relevant to the topic at hand.
    - kennywinker 9y ago
      There is a difference between who we are, and what we do. Most people work in jobs that do not require the kind of heavy lifting that depends on a sexual dimorphic advantage. Even in pre-industrial settings... tilling fields, harvesting crops, general farm work can almost entirely be done by men, women, and even children. Yes, there are differences between the average man and the average women physically. Height, muscle mass, etc. but that does not say much about what is a natural role and what is one that is a product of culture. Because we don’t spend, and probably never spent that much of our lives doing very heavy lifting or giving birth.
      - malvosenior 9y ago
        Those were just a few examples off the top of my head, there are many more (I’m unaware of any female hunting societies for example, breast feeding is another obvious one...). Why do you think we evolved sexually dimorphic features if not to help us in specialized roles?
  - solidsnack9000 9y ago
    Actually, comparative anthropology has shown that many things are quite common across human societies: * patriliny, * the incest taboo, * relative prevalence of monogamy, even in societies that allow polygyny, * the universality of religion. Much of the "nuts and bolts" of human society are found to be shared cross culturally.
    - 9y ago