19 ms·

Nice! However, looking at the screenshots... I wonder why developers so often seem to get UI paddings, margins and font sizes so wrong. Does it really need some

Nice! However, looking at the screenshots... I wonder why developers so often seem to get UI paddings, margins and font sizes so wrong. Does it really need some special kind of sensitivity to notice and care about it? :)

iaml 9y ago
Unfortunately a lot of developers value aesthetic and polish somewhere deep down on the list of priorities and don't seem to comprehend that other people care a lot about such things.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  It is ok, we cannot be an expert on all areas. My focus is on full stack, so I do care a lot about UI/UX, and improving my skills there. However don't ask me to do anything related to NoSQL or Deep Learning, I would be a lousy contributor.
  - oneweekwonder 9y ago
    > It is ok, we cannot be an expert on all areas. > My focus is on full stack, I'm sorry, imo those are two contradicting sentences. But it might be related to a personal pet peeve of "full stack" developers claiming to be expert in most moving parts of the stack. Only to post on medium this amazing db hack they found, to be called out in hn comments for not reading the basic docs of one of the core items in their stack. I always look at Doctors for a bad analogy; why full stack developer is a bad idea. Sure the heart surgeon will be able to diagnose your broken leg. Might even be able to assist you with a cast. But trust him to operate? There a specialist for that! Is this not the same for dev work? Designer, Developer split into 4 fields(desktop, mobile, frontend, backend), database admin, sys admin. All possible to be done by a "full stack" developer. But I don't see you become a specialist or expert in any of the fields of your stack, if you don't dedicate to a few.
    - pjmlp 9y ago
      Well, there is a reason why in some countries access to specialists is forbidden unless you are checked by a general physician first, the one responsible for being your official doctor throughout your entire life. He knows best than having people searching for specialist by themselves. As for myself, if you prefer a more descriptive example, I specialize in everything related to Java, .NET and Web (VanilaJS) stacks.
      - fjrieiekd 9y ago
        As a citizen of one of those countries, this fails spectacularly when your family doctor does -not- know best or just doesn’t care about his job, yet due to the huge scarcity of family doctors, will never lose any of his clientele.
- dopamean 9y ago
  And a lot of developers just don't have an eye for it at all. I can look at a UI all day and tell that something is off but I couldn't even begin to tell you what or how to fix it. It doesn't mean I don't care.
  - seanp2k2 9y ago
    It’s not just having an eye for it; UI design is an entire field, and human computer interaction (HCI) has existed since the 70s. I think that a large part of the problem is PMs / managers / tech leads not understanding that design has subjective elements but can also be objectively good or bad, and that they can’t tell the difference between a design that is correct and works well but might not look very flashy vs something that gets lots of likes on Dribble but is awful to use. This feeds into itself and leads to more people thinking that they know what good design is (pretty) and hiring other people who call themselves designers who have no idea about the actual science behind it.
    - mediocrejoker 9y ago
      As a developer who appreciates good design but doesn’t really know how to create it, can you suggest a good entry level resource that summarizes what we’ve learned over the last 50 years about HCI and how to make usable interfaces?
      - pjmlp 9y ago
        Pluralsight has a few nice courses.
      - brailsafe 9y ago
        Don't Make Me Think be Steve Krugg,Grid systems in Graphic Design by Josef Müller Brockman, Designing with Grids by Mark Boulton, Any of Ellen Lupton's Type Design books. All light reads except Josef's.
      - brailsafe 9y ago
        Also, the classic Elements of Typographic Style by Robert Bringhurst, and probably just go and read everything on Smashing Magazine from about 2010 to now.
- seba_dos1 9y ago
  I don't think that's a matter of priorities so much. I think most of them simply don't notice it or don't know what's exactly wrong when they do. At least that's what I noticed in some people I worked with.
- kylecordes 9y ago
  Tweaking that stuff early on is so effective that it could almost be thought of as a "cheat code" for development. User perception is greatly enhanced by a few hours of tweaking padding spacing etc., rather than a few months or years of deferring that tweaking.
  - codetrotter 9y ago
    > User perception is greatly enhanced by a few hours of tweaking padding spacing etc., rather than a few months or years of deferring that tweaking. Some of us explicitly don't want the UI to give off the impression that the software is more finished than what it really is, so we sometimes intentionally keep the UI unpolished while we know that we have important things not yet implemented. However I have come to realize that there are several downsides to this line of thinking; 1. If the app looks bad then it might permanently put off would-be users. 2. By not giving the UI enough attention early on, discoveries of UX problems that could have been caught early are not made until much later, delaying the project and potentially leading to more work as well because there will be more things that need to be rewritten or remade in order to fix the UX problems. 3. If you think feature X needs to be completed before you do the UI, then what is going to keep features Y and Z and so on to make you think the same way when you get there? Software is often never "complete". If you think it needs to be "complete enough" before you can give it the UI it deserves, how will you know that you've reached the stage of complete enough? Furthermore, I have come to realize that often we don't know what we want exactly. We might think we know, but as we work on implementing our ideas things turn out to not be quite as we'd imagined them to. But I also think that grand parent was on to something. When we build software, we should strive to implement features that are useful but not only that, the software needs to make the most common tasks as efficient for the user to perform as possible. And in order to find out what that means, we need to consider the UI from the very beginning.
- at-fates-hands 9y ago
  I used to work for a company that put out thousands of site a year. I was fortunate enough to work with some really anal retentive designers. After a few months, I was able to pick up a 1 or 2 pixel difference in the photoshop docs, see how fonts did or didn't work and if color schemes were decent. There's a ton of tools out there to help you with these, and as a developer, I like tossing around a lot of the design stuff that gets regulated until an app or site is totally functional, when I feel like most of the design work stuff should be done prior to getting your app working. Design is the hard part, coding it? For me, that's the easy part. I feel like once I've got some decent font's paired, a color scheme worked out and other design elements nailed, the rest is easy.
- ASalazarMX 9y ago
  First make it work, then make it correct, then document it, then make it efficient, then make it pretty. Rarely all stages are reached, but in open source projects, anyone can cook their favorite dish for this dinner.
  - briandear 9y ago
    The problem with that is that “pretty” is implying simple visual beauty. It diminishes what design really is: the way something works not simply how it looks. “Pretty” should be integral to “make it work.” If your design is good, it’s more self-documenting, so pretty early in the process means less work documenting — it also reveals more of the essence of what exactly you are building which then helps drive the decisions on what to build next. Design shouldn’t be an afterthought, it should be THE thought.
    - ASalazarMX 9y ago
      I disagree. If you make something, THE thought is that it fulfills its function correctly. I wouldn't pursue an excellent UX if the inner workings are buggy.
- tomc1985 9y ago
  Aesthetic and polish are over-prioritized in modern development. Which is more likely to anger the user -- a beautiful app sadly broken or an ugly one which does what it says on the tin?
  - freedomben 9y ago
    It really depends on degrees. I've seen apps that were so bad, I couldn't even figure out what to do. It could be mathematically provable under the hood, but if I can't even figure out how to use it, or if the experience is bad enough, I won't care how well it is implemented.
  - briandear 9y ago
    They are one in the same. It’s not zero sum. You don’t sacrifice function for form nor should you sacrifice form for function. They should be the same thing. Form follows function — form shouldn’t be tacked on at the end. We aren’t talking about the color of the paint, we are talking about the way the parts fit together.
icc97 9y ago
These developers are front end developers they should care about that kind of thing. I guess this is an early release and getting the details right does take time. I sometimes get comments along the lines of 'is that all it does?' when I've spent lots of time getting the details correct. Plus yes I think it does require some level of sensitivity to it. 99% of people just don't notice, but the details do matter in the long run as it begins to feel right to people, who will never be able to explain to you why or even complement you on it but will carry on using the system because of it.
pjmlp 9y ago
Yes, it is called frontend development, regardless of native or web based stacks. Care to learn about UI/UX and human psychology how regular users approach computers. Learn how to design UIs and application workflows for people that care how to do their job, without having to understand the internals how computers work. Requires to learn about design and soft skills as well.
- seba_dos1 9y ago
  Although it's important to care about stuff you mentioned, that's completely unrelated to what I meant ;)
blauditore 9y ago
What do you mean; the lack of padding in the blue column? Overall, UI design is really not too bad here. On the other hand, it's almost 1:1 copied from the official Slack app.
- Raphmedia 9y ago
  There is no "vertical rhythm". The strength of the different elements is all over the place. Some elements randomly have 20px spaces between them, some have 28px, some have 32px. This would be fine if they were done on purpose but right now they look like they were chosen randomly. https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/639601/38463114-178afd9e-3b2e-11e8-9650-09b5d981523b.png https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/639601/38463114-17... Take a closer look at the space below the "BabelJS" title. Compare the space between "direct message"/"slackbot" vs. "slackbox"/"zcbenz". Why is the padding around the channel icons 20px on all side while the spacing to the left of "BabelJS" only 13px? etc. Edit: If you still cannot grok what I'm taking about, play a bit with this tool and you will understand https://www.gridlover.net/try https://www.gridlover.net/try
  - seba_dos1 9y ago
    This! It's very far from being 1:1 clone of Slack UI, it's closer to a child's drawing of Slack UI. A mockup. See, this is what I meant, some people just don't see it!
    - ux-app 9y ago
      > See, this is what I meant, some people just don't see it! i'd say most people don't see it. maybe it's not very important then?
      - Raphmedia 9y ago
        People won't see it when looking at you app with blinders on. However, they will feel the difference when using the competition's app. They won't be able to tell you why they prefer the one with more time invested in the UX/UI, but they will almost always choose that one. There are universal rules in design and everyone is using them. We are actively training the users into feeling those rules as superior. (This is also why huge paradigm changes feel so refreshing. Breaking the rules on purpose is very strong.)
vijaybritto 9y ago
It's not necessary that everyone should be well versed in design. I code in js and can't really do design well. If you can do good UI stuff then you can contribute to it!! They would welcome withopen arms!! Cheers!
- seba_dos1 9y ago
  Design is not my thing as well. I code - mobile OSes, XMPP clients, backend/frontend, native utils, games, various stuff (majority of this as FLOSS contributions, even at work ;)) I was never trained in design, I don't care about it that much. Yet I see all those wrong paddings and wouldn't do them this way even in a quick proof of concept. I don't blame the developers, I don't blame the project. I'm glad they do such client and would probably use it over the official Slack client even with its current UI (I'm more interested in a solid XMPP transport though). I just noticed that some people genuinely don't see or can't put their finger on those issues at all, which makes them unable to think about it and fix them without external help. And I wonder why it is like that - what makes you see those misaligned things as standing out, while others don't notice it?
jlg23 9y ago
Because: * in open source software projects, professional designers are rare. * functionality or documentation might have been higher priorities * it would be unfair to deprive you of the opportunity to contribute a better design to this open source projet
- zaroth 9y ago
  The last bullet should come with a warning to put your drink down first.
- stefkors 9y ago
  What is the best way for designers to help with opensource projects? These projects are often very developer oriented.
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    Not bash their contributions like it has happened on GNOME and KDE.
    - freedomben 9y ago
      The bashing is truly amazing. Not only does it lack constructiveness (in most cases), but Gnome (I speak of Gnome here not to the exclusion of KDE. I just happen to be a Gnome user) is beautiful, and has been for years. Thank you Gnome team, including designers, that created such a beautiful desktop experience for me.
      - koffiezet 9y ago
        Design is more than beauty. Design is functionality, how you use stuff. As long as I rather jump into a terminal than navigate through the UI, that's a fail in my book, and very few DE's on Linux pass this test.
  - domoritz 9y ago
    Nicely ask in the bug tracker about how a designer can help. Maybe start with a mock of what you want to change. I'm sure most open source developers will put in extra effort to help you because they value contributions from designers.
Vinnl 9y ago
Regardless of comments about the required skill levels of whatever profession, in this case I think it is clear that it is because it is still in development and the screenshots are only meant to demonstrate the look of the native UI elements. Setting all the paddings to something acceptable takes time (and is just one part of perfecting a design), and that time is pretty much wasted if the layout might still change significantly.
chrishn 9y ago
Even if they just went with 10px spacing everywhere it'd be an improvement.
montyf 9y ago
I thought it wouldn't be so bad, but now that I have seen the screenshots... it's pretty bad. The thing is, a lot of developers seem to have no anesthetic sense whatsoever. I realized this when I noticed that almost all Emacs themes are garbage, and that no one seems to mind. I even wrote a blog post about it with several examples and people thought I was trolling. I mean, just five minutes of work put into this Slack thing would have improved the look a lot, so the other commenter's point about priorities is just kind of dumb. Slack may be a piece of junk but at least it is passable in the looks department. It's not like it's the 90s or anything. How can someone think that looks aren't important?
- merlinsbrain 9y ago
  It’s an open source project with bold text saying not to use it for work since it’s incomplete and may be buggy. The authors goals may not align with yours, and their decision of what they want to do on their free time might not align with yours - this is exactly why releasing it to the open is a good thing, talented and interested people can contribute to it if they choose, or use something else if they are so inclined. I’d love to try themes developed by someone with as strong opinions on design as yourself, but you wrote a blog instead. Its what you wanted to do, and you did!
rch 9y ago
I tend to focus on configurability up front, while respecting system defaults. That approach doesn't always yield the cleanest results out of the box, but I'd want user feedback on functionality before I get into polishing the look and feel.
tomc1985 9y ago
Not that designers have any better ideas. Where the hell did 20px margins and 90% whitespace come from?
chaostheory 9y ago
As a developer who both suffers from the same issue and is a little aware of it, I would say lack of training. What do I need to read to fix this?
cyberferret 9y ago
And the hordes clamoured in unison "You need to have an MVP. If you are not embarrassed by your first release, then you have released too late!!". And the developer released his Minimum Viable Product unto the public. And the hordes were dismayed, and they reeled back uttering "That is butt ugly!". And the developer was dejected and wandered away to work on something else. In all seriousness - mixed messaging as seen on this thread is why I believe most (myself included) eschew the whole 'MVP' thing and try to polish products before release.
- freedomben 9y ago
  Exactly. It drives me nuts in startup world the "push for MVP" or critical path first -> release -> iterate/improve, yet when the product gets released it is criticized for rough edges, bugs, but most appallingly missing features.
  - setr 9y ago
    Well yeah, users want the full fucking product, not the MVP. MVPs happen to be an (apparently) efficient model for startups, but its not like anyone actually wants it. Your users might grudgingly accept your half-finished, buggy, unoptimized MVP because nothing better is available to them, but how could you possibly expect anyone to be happy with this? MVPs are pushed by businesses, not by consumers. But on the market-scale, it also pushes MVPs (because you get bonuses from being first-to-market and such). But no individual consumer goes around saying "yeah I'd love to be promised the world, and instead recieve a millionth of it". Of course you're going to be criticized by the people you've given hope to, only to let down with bug report #985
jv22222 9y ago
I've been trying to put this effect into words for years... You've nailed it with "wrong paddings, margins & font size". Nicely done!
flohofwoe 9y ago
Personal opinion I guess. FWIW the screenshots look completely fine to me. And most important, they don't waste so much screen space as is common with UIs created by "UI designers".

iaml 9y ago

Unfortunately a lot of developers value aesthetic and polish somewhere deep down on the list of priorities and don't seem to comprehend that other people care a lot about such things.

pjmlp 9y ago
It is ok, we cannot be an expert on all areas. My focus is on full stack, so I do care a lot about UI/UX, and improving my skills there. However don't ask me to do anything related to NoSQL or Deep Learning, I would be a lousy contributor.
- oneweekwonder 9y ago
  > It is ok, we cannot be an expert on all areas. > My focus is on full stack, I'm sorry, imo those are two contradicting sentences. But it might be related to a personal pet peeve of "full stack" developers claiming to be expert in most moving parts of the stack. Only to post on medium this amazing db hack they found, to be called out in hn comments for not reading the basic docs of one of the core items in their stack. I always look at Doctors for a bad analogy; why full stack developer is a bad idea. Sure the heart surgeon will be able to diagnose your broken leg. Might even be able to assist you with a cast. But trust him to operate? There a specialist for that! Is this not the same for dev work? Designer, Developer split into 4 fields(desktop, mobile, frontend, backend), database admin, sys admin. All possible to be done by a "full stack" developer. But I don't see you become a specialist or expert in any of the fields of your stack, if you don't dedicate to a few.
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    Well, there is a reason why in some countries access to specialists is forbidden unless you are checked by a general physician first, the one responsible for being your official doctor throughout your entire life. He knows best than having people searching for specialist by themselves. As for myself, if you prefer a more descriptive example, I specialize in everything related to Java, .NET and Web (VanilaJS) stacks.
    - fjrieiekd 9y ago
      As a citizen of one of those countries, this fails spectacularly when your family doctor does -not- know best or just doesn’t care about his job, yet due to the huge scarcity of family doctors, will never lose any of his clientele.
dopamean 9y ago
And a lot of developers just don't have an eye for it at all. I can look at a UI all day and tell that something is off but I couldn't even begin to tell you what or how to fix it. It doesn't mean I don't care.
- seanp2k2 9y ago
  It’s not just having an eye for it; UI design is an entire field, and human computer interaction (HCI) has existed since the 70s. I think that a large part of the problem is PMs / managers / tech leads not understanding that design has subjective elements but can also be objectively good or bad, and that they can’t tell the difference between a design that is correct and works well but might not look very flashy vs something that gets lots of likes on Dribble but is awful to use. This feeds into itself and leads to more people thinking that they know what good design is (pretty) and hiring other people who call themselves designers who have no idea about the actual science behind it.
  - mediocrejoker 9y ago
    As a developer who appreciates good design but doesn’t really know how to create it, can you suggest a good entry level resource that summarizes what we’ve learned over the last 50 years about HCI and how to make usable interfaces?
    - pjmlp 9y ago
      Pluralsight has a few nice courses.
    - brailsafe 9y ago
      Don't Make Me Think be Steve Krugg,Grid systems in Graphic Design by Josef Müller Brockman, Designing with Grids by Mark Boulton, Any of Ellen Lupton's Type Design books. All light reads except Josef's.
    - brailsafe 9y ago
      Also, the classic Elements of Typographic Style by Robert Bringhurst, and probably just go and read everything on Smashing Magazine from about 2010 to now.
seba_dos1 9y ago
I don't think that's a matter of priorities so much. I think most of them simply don't notice it or don't know what's exactly wrong when they do. At least that's what I noticed in some people I worked with.
kylecordes 9y ago
Tweaking that stuff early on is so effective that it could almost be thought of as a "cheat code" for development. User perception is greatly enhanced by a few hours of tweaking padding spacing etc., rather than a few months or years of deferring that tweaking.
- codetrotter 9y ago
  > User perception is greatly enhanced by a few hours of tweaking padding spacing etc., rather than a few months or years of deferring that tweaking. Some of us explicitly don't want the UI to give off the impression that the software is more finished than what it really is, so we sometimes intentionally keep the UI unpolished while we know that we have important things not yet implemented. However I have come to realize that there are several downsides to this line of thinking; 1. If the app looks bad then it might permanently put off would-be users. 2. By not giving the UI enough attention early on, discoveries of UX problems that could have been caught early are not made until much later, delaying the project and potentially leading to more work as well because there will be more things that need to be rewritten or remade in order to fix the UX problems. 3. If you think feature X needs to be completed before you do the UI, then what is going to keep features Y and Z and so on to make you think the same way when you get there? Software is often never "complete". If you think it needs to be "complete enough" before you can give it the UI it deserves, how will you know that you've reached the stage of complete enough? Furthermore, I have come to realize that often we don't know what we want exactly. We might think we know, but as we work on implementing our ideas things turn out to not be quite as we'd imagined them to. But I also think that grand parent was on to something. When we build software, we should strive to implement features that are useful but not only that, the software needs to make the most common tasks as efficient for the user to perform as possible. And in order to find out what that means, we need to consider the UI from the very beginning.
at-fates-hands 9y ago
I used to work for a company that put out thousands of site a year. I was fortunate enough to work with some really anal retentive designers. After a few months, I was able to pick up a 1 or 2 pixel difference in the photoshop docs, see how fonts did or didn't work and if color schemes were decent. There's a ton of tools out there to help you with these, and as a developer, I like tossing around a lot of the design stuff that gets regulated until an app or site is totally functional, when I feel like most of the design work stuff should be done prior to getting your app working. Design is the hard part, coding it? For me, that's the easy part. I feel like once I've got some decent font's paired, a color scheme worked out and other design elements nailed, the rest is easy.
ASalazarMX 9y ago
First make it work, then make it correct, then document it, then make it efficient, then make it pretty. Rarely all stages are reached, but in open source projects, anyone can cook their favorite dish for this dinner.
- briandear 9y ago
  The problem with that is that “pretty” is implying simple visual beauty. It diminishes what design really is: the way something works not simply how it looks. “Pretty” should be integral to “make it work.” If your design is good, it’s more self-documenting, so pretty early in the process means less work documenting — it also reveals more of the essence of what exactly you are building which then helps drive the decisions on what to build next. Design shouldn’t be an afterthought, it should be THE thought.
  - ASalazarMX 9y ago
    I disagree. If you make something, THE thought is that it fulfills its function correctly. I wouldn't pursue an excellent UX if the inner workings are buggy.
tomc1985 9y ago
Aesthetic and polish are over-prioritized in modern development. Which is more likely to anger the user -- a beautiful app sadly broken or an ugly one which does what it says on the tin?
- freedomben 9y ago
  It really depends on degrees. I've seen apps that were so bad, I couldn't even figure out what to do. It could be mathematically provable under the hood, but if I can't even figure out how to use it, or if the experience is bad enough, I won't care how well it is implemented.
- briandear 9y ago
  They are one in the same. It’s not zero sum. You don’t sacrifice function for form nor should you sacrifice form for function. They should be the same thing. Form follows function — form shouldn’t be tacked on at the end. We aren’t talking about the color of the paint, we are talking about the way the parts fit together.

icc97 9y ago

These developers are front end developers they should care about that kind of thing. I guess this is an early release and getting the details right does take time. I sometimes get comments along the lines of 'is that all it does?' when I've spent lots of time getting the details correct. Plus yes I think it does require some level of sensitivity to it. 99% of people just don't notice, but the details do matter in the long run as it begins to feel right to people, who will never be able to explain to you why or even complement you on it but will carry on using the system because of it.

pjmlp 9y ago

Yes, it is called frontend development, regardless of native or web based stacks. Care to learn about UI/UX and human psychology how regular users approach computers. Learn how to design UIs and application workflows for people that care how to do their job, without having to understand the internals how computers work. Requires to learn about design and soft skills as well.

seba_dos1 9y ago
Although it's important to care about stuff you mentioned, that's completely unrelated to what I meant ;)

blauditore 9y ago

What do you mean; the lack of padding in the blue column? Overall, UI design is really not too bad here. On the other hand, it's almost 1:1 copied from the official Slack app.

Raphmedia 9y ago
There is no "vertical rhythm". The strength of the different elements is all over the place. Some elements randomly have 20px spaces between them, some have 28px, some have 32px. This would be fine if they were done on purpose but right now they look like they were chosen randomly. https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/639601/38463114-178afd9e-3b2e-11e8-9650-09b5d981523b.png https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/639601/38463114-17... Take a closer look at the space below the "BabelJS" title. Compare the space between "direct message"/"slackbot" vs. "slackbox"/"zcbenz". Why is the padding around the channel icons 20px on all side while the spacing to the left of "BabelJS" only 13px? etc. Edit: If you still cannot grok what I'm taking about, play a bit with this tool and you will understand https://www.gridlover.net/try https://www.gridlover.net/try
- seba_dos1 9y ago
  This! It's very far from being 1:1 clone of Slack UI, it's closer to a child's drawing of Slack UI. A mockup. See, this is what I meant, some people just don't see it!
  - ux-app 9y ago
    > See, this is what I meant, some people just don't see it! i'd say most people don't see it. maybe it's not very important then?
    - Raphmedia 9y ago
      People won't see it when looking at you app with blinders on. However, they will feel the difference when using the competition's app. They won't be able to tell you why they prefer the one with more time invested in the UX/UI, but they will almost always choose that one. There are universal rules in design and everyone is using them. We are actively training the users into feeling those rules as superior. (This is also why huge paradigm changes feel so refreshing. Breaking the rules on purpose is very strong.)

vijaybritto 9y ago

It's not necessary that everyone should be well versed in design. I code in js and can't really do design well. If you can do good UI stuff then you can contribute to it!! They would welcome withopen arms!! Cheers!

seba_dos1 9y ago
Design is not my thing as well. I code - mobile OSes, XMPP clients, backend/frontend, native utils, games, various stuff (majority of this as FLOSS contributions, even at work ;)) I was never trained in design, I don't care about it that much. Yet I see all those wrong paddings and wouldn't do them this way even in a quick proof of concept. I don't blame the developers, I don't blame the project. I'm glad they do such client and would probably use it over the official Slack client even with its current UI (I'm more interested in a solid XMPP transport though). I just noticed that some people genuinely don't see or can't put their finger on those issues at all, which makes them unable to think about it and fix them without external help. And I wonder why it is like that - what makes you see those misaligned things as standing out, while others don't notice it?

jlg23 9y ago

Because: * in open source software projects, professional designers are rare. * functionality or documentation might have been higher priorities * it would be unfair to deprive you of the opportunity to contribute a better design to this open source projet

zaroth 9y ago
The last bullet should come with a warning to put your drink down first.
stefkors 9y ago
What is the best way for designers to help with opensource projects? These projects are often very developer oriented.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  Not bash their contributions like it has happened on GNOME and KDE.
  - freedomben 9y ago
    The bashing is truly amazing. Not only does it lack constructiveness (in most cases), but Gnome (I speak of Gnome here not to the exclusion of KDE. I just happen to be a Gnome user) is beautiful, and has been for years. Thank you Gnome team, including designers, that created such a beautiful desktop experience for me.
    - koffiezet 9y ago
      Design is more than beauty. Design is functionality, how you use stuff. As long as I rather jump into a terminal than navigate through the UI, that's a fail in my book, and very few DE's on Linux pass this test.
- domoritz 9y ago
  Nicely ask in the bug tracker about how a designer can help. Maybe start with a mock of what you want to change. I'm sure most open source developers will put in extra effort to help you because they value contributions from designers.

Vinnl 9y ago

Regardless of comments about the required skill levels of whatever profession, in this case I think it is clear that it is because it is still in development and the screenshots are only meant to demonstrate the look of the native UI elements. Setting all the paddings to something acceptable takes time (and is just one part of perfecting a design), and that time is pretty much wasted if the layout might still change significantly.

chrishn 9y ago

Even if they just went with 10px spacing everywhere it'd be an improvement.

montyf 9y ago

I thought it wouldn't be so bad, but now that I have seen the screenshots... it's pretty bad. The thing is, a lot of developers seem to have no anesthetic sense whatsoever. I realized this when I noticed that almost all Emacs themes are garbage, and that no one seems to mind. I even wrote a blog post about it with several examples and people thought I was trolling. I mean, just five minutes of work put into this Slack thing would have improved the look a lot, so the other commenter's point about priorities is just kind of dumb. Slack may be a piece of junk but at least it is passable in the looks department. It's not like it's the 90s or anything. How can someone think that looks aren't important?

merlinsbrain 9y ago
It’s an open source project with bold text saying not to use it for work since it’s incomplete and may be buggy. The authors goals may not align with yours, and their decision of what they want to do on their free time might not align with yours - this is exactly why releasing it to the open is a good thing, talented and interested people can contribute to it if they choose, or use something else if they are so inclined. I’d love to try themes developed by someone with as strong opinions on design as yourself, but you wrote a blog instead. Its what you wanted to do, and you did!

rch 9y ago

I tend to focus on configurability up front, while respecting system defaults. That approach doesn't always yield the cleanest results out of the box, but I'd want user feedback on functionality before I get into polishing the look and feel.

tomc1985 9y ago

Not that designers have any better ideas. Where the hell did 20px margins and 90% whitespace come from?

chaostheory 9y ago

As a developer who both suffers from the same issue and is a little aware of it, I would say lack of training. What do I need to read to fix this?

cyberferret 9y ago

And the hordes clamoured in unison "You need to have an MVP. If you are not embarrassed by your first release, then you have released too late!!". And the developer released his Minimum Viable Product unto the public. And the hordes were dismayed, and they reeled back uttering "That is butt ugly!". And the developer was dejected and wandered away to work on something else. In all seriousness - mixed messaging as seen on this thread is why I believe most (myself included) eschew the whole 'MVP' thing and try to polish products before release.

freedomben 9y ago
Exactly. It drives me nuts in startup world the "push for MVP" or critical path first -> release -> iterate/improve, yet when the product gets released it is criticized for rough edges, bugs, but most appallingly missing features.
- setr 9y ago
  Well yeah, users want the full fucking product, not the MVP. MVPs happen to be an (apparently) efficient model for startups, but its not like anyone actually wants it. Your users might grudgingly accept your half-finished, buggy, unoptimized MVP because nothing better is available to them, but how could you possibly expect anyone to be happy with this? MVPs are pushed by businesses, not by consumers. But on the market-scale, it also pushes MVPs (because you get bonuses from being first-to-market and such). But no individual consumer goes around saying "yeah I'd love to be promised the world, and instead recieve a millionth of it". Of course you're going to be criticized by the people you've given hope to, only to let down with bug report #985

jv22222 9y ago

I've been trying to put this effect into words for years... You've nailed it with "wrong paddings, margins & font size". Nicely done!

flohofwoe 9y ago

Personal opinion I guess. FWIW the screenshots look completely fine to me. And most important, they don't waste so much screen space as is common with UIs created by "UI designers".