6 ms·

Most of the time a signature isn’t for verification but rather for acknowledgment. I don’t give two shits what you put down as a signature, I just want a recor

Most of the time a signature isn’t for verification but rather for acknowledgment. I don’t give two shits what you put down as a signature, I just want a record that you consciously were present and signed something, so I don’t get accused of trying to pass off something quietly that you never agreed to. If I have some scribble you made at a time and place, the onus is on you to prove it wasn’t you who did that.

miketery 9y ago
Provide an index sheet attached to a stack of papers acknowledging documents included (title, version, date on document, page count). Check by each line, one signature overall.
- matte_black 9y ago
  Nope, too easy to argue you signed a bunch of things you did not see. I want each page initialed and important disclaimers signed at the location they appear. Will make it much easier for me in court. Much harder for you.
  - techsupporter 9y ago
    I have a genuine question, and because text doesn’t convey emotion I want to be very clear that my curiosity is genuine: what is it that you’re doing that is, by appearance to me, a common transaction (perhaps multiple times per day?) wherein you want to be absolutely sure that the customer assented to lengthy terms and conditions and you’re often going into court (at least so often that you want it to be “easier for” you)? And, as a follow-up, how does this relate to a signature being used as confirmation of payment? (Or did you mean in relation to the signatures for housing transfers?)
  - jjeaff 9y ago
    When we raised money from several VCs (using some of the top legal firms in silicon valley and NYC) all we had to sign was the very last page which had only the signature lines on it. It could have been attached to anything. And in fact, sometimes, they emailed us the signature page separately for us to sign, scan and send back. So I don't really think there is really much legal benefit to having stuff on every page to sign.
    - user5994461 9y ago
      Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean there isn't a legal benefit. A paper contract must be done in two copies. Every page numbered and signed by both parties. That's the only way to cover your ass against the other party replacing pages and terms.
      - jjeaff 9y ago
        No one does that for large contracts. We would have had to sign over 1,200 pages.
    - matte_black 9y ago
      I recommend reading what you signed, you may be getting taken to the cleaners.
lokedhs 9y ago
Actually, it's the other way around. The credit card company, and by extension the merchant, have to prove that's your scribble. Here's one way to think about it. If it was the way you suggest then all an identity theif would have to do is to draw something on the dotted line and all of a sudden you're in a position where you have to prove your innocence.
- matte_black 9y ago
  The merchant can pull up the cctv. A signature becomes more damning if a neutral third party witnessed you signing the document.
  - supertrope 9y ago
    It depends on how much money is at stake, what the alleged issue is, and what card network and network was used. Amex is infamous for almost always finding in favor of its cardholders, even more so than already cardholder biased CC isuers.
baddox 9y ago
My recent apartment lease was delivered online, but required me to go through every page and click a button that filled in my initials in a cursive font. It’s silly, yes, but I’m sure it’s just there to “prove” that I acknowledged each page individually.
- user5994461 9y ago
  It's the same as a paper contract.
- supertrope 9y ago
  That's the e-equivalent of initialing every page of a contract. The cursive part is funny. Rituals change slowly. People trust moused signatures and fax machine timestamps more than RSA public keys.
  - amyjess 9y ago
    If it's DocuSign, they actually let you pick your own font from a list, so you can claim it's "your" handwriting because you chose it. And it's been a while, but I think they let you mouse a signature and initials if you don't like any of the fonts. The funny thing is that for the last few years, I've been trying to make my own handwriting resemble an italic serif font as much as possible, so I actually do write like a font. But for everything except my signature. I never sign anything the same way twice, and my signature is always just a random scribble. Sometimes it's even an X.
    - zodiakzz 9y ago
      >I never sign anything the same way twice, and my signature is always just a random scribble. Is that legal? o.O
      - uiri 9y ago
        Yes. If you say it is your signature, even if someone else physically signed on your behalf, then it is your signature. The hairy part is if you say it isn't your signature.

miketery 9y ago

Provide an index sheet attached to a stack of papers acknowledging documents included (title, version, date on document, page count). Check by each line, one signature overall.

matte_black 9y ago
Nope, too easy to argue you signed a bunch of things you did not see. I want each page initialed and important disclaimers signed at the location they appear. Will make it much easier for me in court. Much harder for you.
- techsupporter 9y ago
  I have a genuine question, and because text doesn’t convey emotion I want to be very clear that my curiosity is genuine: what is it that you’re doing that is, by appearance to me, a common transaction (perhaps multiple times per day?) wherein you want to be absolutely sure that the customer assented to lengthy terms and conditions and you’re often going into court (at least so often that you want it to be “easier for” you)? And, as a follow-up, how does this relate to a signature being used as confirmation of payment? (Or did you mean in relation to the signatures for housing transfers?)
- jjeaff 9y ago
  When we raised money from several VCs (using some of the top legal firms in silicon valley and NYC) all we had to sign was the very last page which had only the signature lines on it. It could have been attached to anything. And in fact, sometimes, they emailed us the signature page separately for us to sign, scan and send back. So I don't really think there is really much legal benefit to having stuff on every page to sign.
  - user5994461 9y ago
    Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean there isn't a legal benefit. A paper contract must be done in two copies. Every page numbered and signed by both parties. That's the only way to cover your ass against the other party replacing pages and terms.
    - jjeaff 9y ago
      No one does that for large contracts. We would have had to sign over 1,200 pages.
  - matte_black 9y ago
    I recommend reading what you signed, you may be getting taken to the cleaners.

lokedhs 9y ago

Actually, it's the other way around. The credit card company, and by extension the merchant, have to prove that's your scribble. Here's one way to think about it. If it was the way you suggest then all an identity theif would have to do is to draw something on the dotted line and all of a sudden you're in a position where you have to prove your innocence.

matte_black 9y ago
The merchant can pull up the cctv. A signature becomes more damning if a neutral third party witnessed you signing the document.
- supertrope 9y ago
  It depends on how much money is at stake, what the alleged issue is, and what card network and network was used. Amex is infamous for almost always finding in favor of its cardholders, even more so than already cardholder biased CC isuers.

baddox 9y ago

My recent apartment lease was delivered online, but required me to go through every page and click a button that filled in my initials in a cursive font. It’s silly, yes, but I’m sure it’s just there to “prove” that I acknowledged each page individually.

user5994461 9y ago
It's the same as a paper contract.
supertrope 9y ago
That's the e-equivalent of initialing every page of a contract. The cursive part is funny. Rituals change slowly. People trust moused signatures and fax machine timestamps more than RSA public keys.
- amyjess 9y ago
  If it's DocuSign, they actually let you pick your own font from a list, so you can claim it's "your" handwriting because you chose it. And it's been a while, but I think they let you mouse a signature and initials if you don't like any of the fonts. The funny thing is that for the last few years, I've been trying to make my own handwriting resemble an italic serif font as much as possible, so I actually do write like a font. But for everything except my signature. I never sign anything the same way twice, and my signature is always just a random scribble. Sometimes it's even an X.
  - zodiakzz 9y ago
    >I never sign anything the same way twice, and my signature is always just a random scribble. Is that legal? o.O
    - uiri 9y ago
      Yes. If you say it is your signature, even if someone else physically signed on your behalf, then it is your signature. The hairy part is if you say it isn't your signature.