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I think your concerns are very reasonable. However, I think that thinking them all the way through is cause for more optimism than you're applying. For exampl

by jMyles 9y ago

I think your concerns are very reasonable. However, I think that thinking them all the way through is cause for more optimism than you're applying. For example, > no longer working for peace because it's not always required to make your economic schemes work Is this really a possibility? Peace is always good for bounty. Everybody everywhere wants peace. Along with justice, freedom, and love, it is one of the most unifying characteristics of the human condition. It is precisely those middlemen whom blockchain tech might undermine that have seized upon these soft parts of human kind and turned perverted them. In a world without fiat currency, I am quite confident that there will be less money for bombs and cheap plastic nonsense. This has been a critique of fiat currency for thousands of years, and only now does humanity have a tool to visualize it. And it's not hard to imagine blockchain technology replacing currency and consumerism altogether. Of course this will take a massive social movement - advances in the technology alone are perhaps necessary, but certainly not sufficient. > a "human-less economy" enabled by smart contracts - long before autonomous "un-owned" corporations run by AIs take over the world, they will be used for all sorts of shady things, money laundering, toxic waste disposal by buying it but never paying to store it etc. But again, humanity has a deep desire for the verdant. The deprecation of "easy" money, global theft, and warfare-as-the-norm - these are continuing imperatives and are good prayers for our earth. And on long time scales, it seems that blockchain tech tends toward, rather than away from, these things.

scribu 9y ago
> And it's not hard to imagine blockchain technology replacing currency and consumerism altogether. It is for me. How exactly would blockchain replace consumerism? And replace it with what? > The deprecation of "easy" money, global theft, and warfare-as-the-norm - these are continuing imperatives and are good prayers for our earth. And on long time scales, it seems that blockchain tech tends toward, rather than away from, these things. Do you have any evidence for such a bold claim? Or at least a rational argument for why blockchain tech would lead to such outcomes?
- jMyles 9y ago
  > It is for me. How exactly would blockchain replace consumerism? And replace it with what? Painting with broad strokes: easy money / inflationary currency policy promotes spending over saving, right? So, with a less inflationary currency (or ecosystem of currencies), people will be less incentivized to spend in such a frenzied manner. I'm not really introducing anything new here; this is the basic Austrian critique re: price signals in the environment. > What evidence do you have for such bold claims? Well, I hope we can take the former as read: obviously a cryptocurrency with a less inflationary policy will promote deprecation of each money. As for global theft: the main infrastructure for nation-state level economic predation is monetary policy, and then trade policy as a secondary matter. Monetary policy may (again, in this admittedly utopian world I'm describing) be wrested from the state by virtue of cryptocurrencies. And trade policy with smart contracts. As for deprecation of warfare-as-the-norm: This, at least to me, is the logical consequence of the first two. If there is less rampant easy-money-consumerism, and no state-level monetary or trade policies, then warfare will increasingly be viewed as a sink of power rather than a fount. Am I being very hopeful here? Yes, I am. But I am very hopeful. I think that in these troubled times it is a great visionary exercise to ask yourself: what are some of the best things you can imagine happening for humanity in the next 50 years?
  - scribu 9y ago
    Thank you for ellaborating. It seems like your argument is centered around inflation, which is a relatively new phenomenon. Regarding consumerism, perhaps you’re right that lack of inflation will reduce it. But what if, after a certain point, consumerism is the main driver of economic growth, the thing that enables all the really good stuff to develop, such as scientific development? Regarding warfare, before fiat currency, you could argue that some wars were waged in order to get access to gold and silver mines. But I hope you’ll agree that those were only a small minority. I’m excluding violence for the purpose of simply stealing gold and silver outright, because the equivalent can still happen in a blockchain world - just point a gun to someone’s head and tell them to transfer all their coins to your account.
    - 9y ago
danans 9y ago
> Everybody everywhere wants peace. Along with justice, freedom, and love, it is one of the most unifying characteristics of the human condition. People want safety and stability. In the context of large societies, a mutual desire for peace exists only because the alternative (large scale war) has such terrible consequences. In fact, for centuries - and still in many places today - the opposite has been true: increasing wealth by exploitation of other nations' resources has been used as the rationale for military conquest. > But again, humanity has a deep desire for the verdant. The deprecation of "easy" money, global theft, and warfare-as-the-norm - these are continuing imperatives and are good prayers for our earth. And on long time scales, it seems that blockchain tech tends toward, rather than away from, these things. These are lovely sentiments, but trustworthy and accountable/transparent institutions made of people are the only thing that can achieve that kind of vision, not some kind of invisible hand of justice that one assumes is behind blockchain. That is basically anarchism - leaving matters of broad societal importance: justice, finance, etc. to the mob. We humans have been there before. It isn't pretty.

by jMyles 9y ago

scribu 9y ago

> And it's not hard to imagine blockchain technology replacing currency and consumerism altogether. It is for me. How exactly would blockchain replace consumerism? And replace it with what? > The deprecation of "easy" money, global theft, and warfare-as-the-norm - these are continuing imperatives and are good prayers for our earth. And on long time scales, it seems that blockchain tech tends toward, rather than away from, these things. Do you have any evidence for such a bold claim? Or at least a rational argument for why blockchain tech would lead to such outcomes?

jMyles 9y ago
> It is for me. How exactly would blockchain replace consumerism? And replace it with what? Painting with broad strokes: easy money / inflationary currency policy promotes spending over saving, right? So, with a less inflationary currency (or ecosystem of currencies), people will be less incentivized to spend in such a frenzied manner. I'm not really introducing anything new here; this is the basic Austrian critique re: price signals in the environment. > What evidence do you have for such bold claims? Well, I hope we can take the former as read: obviously a cryptocurrency with a less inflationary policy will promote deprecation of each money. As for global theft: the main infrastructure for nation-state level economic predation is monetary policy, and then trade policy as a secondary matter. Monetary policy may (again, in this admittedly utopian world I'm describing) be wrested from the state by virtue of cryptocurrencies. And trade policy with smart contracts. As for deprecation of warfare-as-the-norm: This, at least to me, is the logical consequence of the first two. If there is less rampant easy-money-consumerism, and no state-level monetary or trade policies, then warfare will increasingly be viewed as a sink of power rather than a fount. Am I being very hopeful here? Yes, I am. But I am very hopeful. I think that in these troubled times it is a great visionary exercise to ask yourself: what are some of the best things you can imagine happening for humanity in the next 50 years?
- scribu 9y ago
  Thank you for ellaborating. It seems like your argument is centered around inflation, which is a relatively new phenomenon. Regarding consumerism, perhaps you’re right that lack of inflation will reduce it. But what if, after a certain point, consumerism is the main driver of economic growth, the thing that enables all the really good stuff to develop, such as scientific development? Regarding warfare, before fiat currency, you could argue that some wars were waged in order to get access to gold and silver mines. But I hope you’ll agree that those were only a small minority. I’m excluding violence for the purpose of simply stealing gold and silver outright, because the equivalent can still happen in a blockchain world - just point a gun to someone’s head and tell them to transfer all their coins to your account.
  - 9y ago

danans 9y ago

> Everybody everywhere wants peace. Along with justice, freedom, and love, it is one of the most unifying characteristics of the human condition. People want safety and stability. In the context of large societies, a mutual desire for peace exists only because the alternative (large scale war) has such terrible consequences. In fact, for centuries - and still in many places today - the opposite has been true: increasing wealth by exploitation of other nations' resources has been used as the rationale for military conquest. > But again, humanity has a deep desire for the verdant. The deprecation of "easy" money, global theft, and warfare-as-the-norm - these are continuing imperatives and are good prayers for our earth. And on long time scales, it seems that blockchain tech tends toward, rather than away from, these things. These are lovely sentiments, but trustworthy and accountable/transparent institutions made of people are the only thing that can achieve that kind of vision, not some kind of invisible hand of justice that one assumes is behind blockchain. That is basically anarchism - leaving matters of broad societal importance: justice, finance, etc. to the mob. We humans have been there before. It isn't pretty.