4 ms·

> I don't know what the answer is, or how to deal with it. The answer is to give them a home, help to get back into a regular life and make sure they don't run

by TomK32 9y ago

> I don't know what the answer is, or how to deal with it. The answer is to give them a home, help to get back into a regular life and make sure they don't run into the same issues again that led to their homelessness. Finland has managed to achieve this, why can't the rest of the western world follow?

azinman2 9y ago
Because the rest isn’t identical? Scale, education equality, discrepancies in make up and values, notions of state responsibility, healthcare accessibility, etc.
ranman 9y ago
Finland has a population that is 70x smaller than the US. They also invest heavily in education. I assume other countries struggle scaling programs from 5 million people to 350 million... and that’s why many of the great programs that Finland has don’t scale to elsewhere.
- pedrosorio 9y ago
  Population, education, "homogeneity". Why don't we just leave it at "Have you spent a winter in Finland and Southern California?"
- stefs 9y ago
  that's always the argument: "doesn't work here because the population size is n times as big". but i don't understand why this should be the case. it's not that the culture in the u.s. is fundamentally different. and it's not like their budget to combat homelessness couldn't also be n times as big. and the problem in the u.s. is pressing (at least compared to other rich countries) and, one would think, warrant drastic measures. i think one of the underlying problems is that homelessness is a very diverse problem - people are homeless for very different reasons and need very different solutions - and mostly a symptom of underlying problems that are actually hard to fix. i.e. fixing the symptom would be easy compared to fixing the many, many root issues, because the solutions may run counter to american cultural values, which aren't a problem in countries like finland (an expanded social safety net, for example). decriminalization of (hard) drugs as seen in portugal might be easier to implement (at least under the next democrat government). on the other hand i fear that a rising income disparity all over the world might actually cause the problem to worsen in other countries that don't have a huge pressing homelessness problem right now and follow americas lead in the latest tent city fashions.
pedrosorio 9y ago
> Finland has managed to achieve this, why can't the rest of the western world follow? Consider the homeless person for a moment. Given the same population with the choice to (A) stay indoors (in whatever solutions are provided by the government) or (B) be homeless, how would you expect the probability distribution of people choosing B instead of A to look like in Finland and Southern California?
stmfreak 9y ago
Most of these people had homes and jobs once, but prefer drugs and alcohol over the rules and expectations of those who provided said homes and jobs. Homelessness is not a sudden condition, it is the result of thousands of choices to indulge in selfish behavior. Inflicting family oriented communities with shelters for these people is the wrong approach. We need to provided a path out of homelessness that enforces sobriety, sets behavioral expectations, and demands they get jobs. Sadly, such shelters exist and yet most prefer to stay drunk on the streets.
- makecheck 9y ago
  How do you know this about these people? Frankly I think the population is far too large to come to one conclusion across the board. And what is a “family oriented” community? Is that just code for making other people deal with the problem and not taint your backyard? And you think you can just expect people to “get a job”, like that is straightforward? Like there’s just so much opportunity out there, with more than enough income from one job to survive in these crazy-expensive places? (Hint: No way.)
- olliej 9y ago
  For instance it could be the result of ptsd from being in Iraq. Or Vietnam. Or Afghanistan. Where is the support for veterans? It could be mental health - if you can’t afford healthcare you may not be able keep a job. Once you don’t have a job you very quickly end up homeless. Now you don’t have a home, how do you possibly get treatment or a job? Eventually you are arrested and go to jail, where you can get treatment but now you’re an excon so can’t get a job so end up homeless without treatment. You were kicked out of your home when you came out as a teenager - you’re homeless, may not have even finished school, and many jobs these days have minimum age rules. So now you’re stuck unless you’re one of the lucky few who manages to get support and a home before drugs and alcohol become the only “escape” Same as above but you’re a kid abused by a family member, foster family, ... Note how all of these paths eventually put you in a position where you cannot escape homelessness. You cannot get healthcare or a job without somewhere to live unless you’re very lucky. So instead you end up cycling through prison, which in just a small amount of time costs much more than covering the cost of housing in the first place.
brudgers 9y ago
The camps are people's homes. That's the language issue when talking about "the homeless." It constrains our discussion of homes narrowly. We limit "home" to particular built structures, living arrangements, and cultural values.
mirkules 9y ago
Firstly, Finnish climate is a lot different than Southern California with an average temperature of 65F. If the government or society never acted on the problem in Finland it would be a humanitarian crisis with people freezing to death. It is much easier to neglect the problem in SoCal because of the climate. Second, the state of California is so far in debt, it would put a further strain on its economics. There is simply no money to pay for "solving" the problem, and because people aren't dying in the streets en masse (like they would in Finland during the winter) nobody wants to pay for it. Third, even if we could solve the problem practically, it would be a recurrent problem. There is a problem of people expecting handouts and capitalizing on them. So throwing money at the problem will simply not fix it. I'll end with an anecdote from 20-ish years ago. We were having lunch at McDonald's, and a homeless guy walks by: "Hey buddy, you gonna eat all that?". "Uh, yeah," struggling to finish my mouthful as I'm trying to answer. "Maaan, it ain't even fun being homeless anymore!" and walks away. How do you fix that?
YOrlandoLO 9y ago
> The answer is to give them a home How condescending can you be? I guess that's solved!? There are multiple 'types' of homeless, that I have encountered across multiple states. There is some overlap. Most of the homeless DO NOT WANT to have the responsibility (cognitive or financial) of a home, bills, etc. They believe that they are happy making do and tend to congregate in the same municipal areas. What do you think happens to the least intelligent of a society? Honestly, this population will only grow. On the other side, people who want help get it, as every camp and clearout includes copious social workers. You need 0 resources to get a medical and dental insurance in Washington State. Social services are offered everywhere the homeless gather, but unsurprisingly they don't usually take it. One of the most common 'types' is the homesteader. The kind of people who live out in the desert in trailers have moved to more populous, relatively comfortable areas to live as they like due to the purchase/development of the areas they would normally squat on. This type of nomad living isn't strictly a mental illness, but it's also not an issue of housing. The second 'type' is the addict. Now this isn't always drugs, although it almost always devolves into that. Some people are hoarders (an addiction) or pet hoarders, or whatever and slowly but surely are stripped of everything they have. Then it tends to turn to a replacement like drugs. These are also the most common criminal element. Stealing bikes, hoses, whatever to feed their various addictions and to give them purpose. Being homeless is boring. The third type is the more sympathetic hard case. These are the people that are turned away from shelters, but won't let go of the dog they keep, which is all that's left from their previous life. They tend to accept help, but there's a shortage for even this sliver. For now, making homelessness illegal in incorporated counties, without enrollment and participation in rehabilitation programs, this will continue.
praha14 9y ago
Isn't Finland almost entirely white whereas California is predominantly Hispanic? That seems like an obvious first place to look. It could be the case that the distribution of time-preference, social trust, IQ, or any of the other factors that correlate with homelessness differs among ethnicities.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

by TomK32 9y ago

azinman2 9y ago

Because the rest isn’t identical? Scale, education equality, discrepancies in make up and values, notions of state responsibility, healthcare accessibility, etc.

ranman 9y ago

Finland has a population that is 70x smaller than the US. They also invest heavily in education. I assume other countries struggle scaling programs from 5 million people to 350 million... and that’s why many of the great programs that Finland has don’t scale to elsewhere.

pedrosorio 9y ago
Population, education, "homogeneity". Why don't we just leave it at "Have you spent a winter in Finland and Southern California?"
stefs 9y ago
that's always the argument: "doesn't work here because the population size is n times as big". but i don't understand why this should be the case. it's not that the culture in the u.s. is fundamentally different. and it's not like their budget to combat homelessness couldn't also be n times as big. and the problem in the u.s. is pressing (at least compared to other rich countries) and, one would think, warrant drastic measures. i think one of the underlying problems is that homelessness is a very diverse problem - people are homeless for very different reasons and need very different solutions - and mostly a symptom of underlying problems that are actually hard to fix. i.e. fixing the symptom would be easy compared to fixing the many, many root issues, because the solutions may run counter to american cultural values, which aren't a problem in countries like finland (an expanded social safety net, for example). decriminalization of (hard) drugs as seen in portugal might be easier to implement (at least under the next democrat government). on the other hand i fear that a rising income disparity all over the world might actually cause the problem to worsen in other countries that don't have a huge pressing homelessness problem right now and follow americas lead in the latest tent city fashions.

pedrosorio 9y ago

> Finland has managed to achieve this, why can't the rest of the western world follow? Consider the homeless person for a moment. Given the same population with the choice to (A) stay indoors (in whatever solutions are provided by the government) or (B) be homeless, how would you expect the probability distribution of people choosing B instead of A to look like in Finland and Southern California?

stmfreak 9y ago

Most of these people had homes and jobs once, but prefer drugs and alcohol over the rules and expectations of those who provided said homes and jobs. Homelessness is not a sudden condition, it is the result of thousands of choices to indulge in selfish behavior. Inflicting family oriented communities with shelters for these people is the wrong approach. We need to provided a path out of homelessness that enforces sobriety, sets behavioral expectations, and demands they get jobs. Sadly, such shelters exist and yet most prefer to stay drunk on the streets.

makecheck 9y ago
How do you know this about these people? Frankly I think the population is far too large to come to one conclusion across the board. And what is a “family oriented” community? Is that just code for making other people deal with the problem and not taint your backyard? And you think you can just expect people to “get a job”, like that is straightforward? Like there’s just so much opportunity out there, with more than enough income from one job to survive in these crazy-expensive places? (Hint: No way.)
olliej 9y ago
For instance it could be the result of ptsd from being in Iraq. Or Vietnam. Or Afghanistan. Where is the support for veterans? It could be mental health - if you can’t afford healthcare you may not be able keep a job. Once you don’t have a job you very quickly end up homeless. Now you don’t have a home, how do you possibly get treatment or a job? Eventually you are arrested and go to jail, where you can get treatment but now you’re an excon so can’t get a job so end up homeless without treatment. You were kicked out of your home when you came out as a teenager - you’re homeless, may not have even finished school, and many jobs these days have minimum age rules. So now you’re stuck unless you’re one of the lucky few who manages to get support and a home before drugs and alcohol become the only “escape” Same as above but you’re a kid abused by a family member, foster family, ... Note how all of these paths eventually put you in a position where you cannot escape homelessness. You cannot get healthcare or a job without somewhere to live unless you’re very lucky. So instead you end up cycling through prison, which in just a small amount of time costs much more than covering the cost of housing in the first place.

brudgers 9y ago

The camps are people's homes. That's the language issue when talking about "the homeless." It constrains our discussion of homes narrowly. We limit "home" to particular built structures, living arrangements, and cultural values.

mirkules 9y ago

Firstly, Finnish climate is a lot different than Southern California with an average temperature of 65F. If the government or society never acted on the problem in Finland it would be a humanitarian crisis with people freezing to death. It is much easier to neglect the problem in SoCal because of the climate. Second, the state of California is so far in debt, it would put a further strain on its economics. There is simply no money to pay for "solving" the problem, and because people aren't dying in the streets en masse (like they would in Finland during the winter) nobody wants to pay for it. Third, even if we could solve the problem practically, it would be a recurrent problem. There is a problem of people expecting handouts and capitalizing on them. So throwing money at the problem will simply not fix it. I'll end with an anecdote from 20-ish years ago. We were having lunch at McDonald's, and a homeless guy walks by: "Hey buddy, you gonna eat all that?". "Uh, yeah," struggling to finish my mouthful as I'm trying to answer. "Maaan, it ain't even fun being homeless anymore!" and walks away. How do you fix that?

YOrlandoLO 9y ago

> The answer is to give them a home How condescending can you be? I guess that's solved!? There are multiple 'types' of homeless, that I have encountered across multiple states. There is some overlap. Most of the homeless DO NOT WANT to have the responsibility (cognitive or financial) of a home, bills, etc. They believe that they are happy making do and tend to congregate in the same municipal areas. What do you think happens to the least intelligent of a society? Honestly, this population will only grow. On the other side, people who want help get it, as every camp and clearout includes copious social workers. You need 0 resources to get a medical and dental insurance in Washington State. Social services are offered everywhere the homeless gather, but unsurprisingly they don't usually take it. One of the most common 'types' is the homesteader. The kind of people who live out in the desert in trailers have moved to more populous, relatively comfortable areas to live as they like due to the purchase/development of the areas they would normally squat on. This type of nomad living isn't strictly a mental illness, but it's also not an issue of housing. The second 'type' is the addict. Now this isn't always drugs, although it almost always devolves into that. Some people are hoarders (an addiction) or pet hoarders, or whatever and slowly but surely are stripped of everything they have. Then it tends to turn to a replacement like drugs. These are also the most common criminal element. Stealing bikes, hoses, whatever to feed their various addictions and to give them purpose. Being homeless is boring. The third type is the more sympathetic hard case. These are the people that are turned away from shelters, but won't let go of the dog they keep, which is all that's left from their previous life. They tend to accept help, but there's a shortage for even this sliver. For now, making homelessness illegal in incorporated counties, without enrollment and participation in rehabilitation programs, this will continue.

praha14 9y ago

Isn't Finland almost entirely white whereas California is predominantly Hispanic? That seems like an obvious first place to look. It could be the case that the distribution of time-preference, social trust, IQ, or any of the other factors that correlate with homelessness differs among ethnicities.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]