3 ms·

Am I misremembering, but I thought in Jared Diamond's GGS, the claim was made (and fairly well substantiated IIRC) that although writing was invented independen

by Jedd 9y ago

Am I misremembering, but I thought in Jared Diamond's GGS, the claim was made (and fairly well substantiated IIRC) that although writing was invented independently in several places around the planet, the (concept of an) alphabet was only invented once, and basically was propagated outwards. It's an appealing idea, not least because it seems so bizarre.

bitxbitxbitcoin 9y ago
It makes sense as far as I am concerned. Asian languages’ “alphabets” are a testament to this.
- spacehome 9y ago
  Korean has an alphabet in the sense that we mean. 40 characters, each corresponding to a particular phoneme. You can learn to sound out written Korean in as little as a day of study.
  - hrydgard 9y ago
    It was created in the 15th century though, and the creators surely knew of other alphabets.
empath75 9y ago
I think in the sense of characters representing consonants and vowels specifically, but there are several phonetic alphabets — Japanese and Korean off the top of my head.
- laretluval 9y ago
  The Japanese and Koreans didn't independently invent the idea of a phonetic writing system, though. They knew about Sanskrit, Mongolian script, etc.
- gus_massa 9y ago
  I think you mean "syllabic". Korean is almost phonetic but it's very recent (1443-1444) and it's influenced by the Latin alphabet family (should I call it Phoenician). It's not a direct copy, but it's not an independent invention. The Japanese language is mostly logographic, but they have two second class syllabic alternatives for students, kids and weird words. They have no traditional phonetic system. If I can add a personal anecdote, I speak Spanish that is a very regular phonetic language like German. When my daughter was learning to read we have to teach her all the combinations of each consonant, for example "ma, me, mi, mo, mu" and then "la, le, li, lo, lu", and then ... after a few letter we imagined that she would pick the regularity and then with a single example like "ba" she would complete the sequence but no, we had to tell her the whole sequence "ba, be, bi, bo, bu". This is similar to the system used in schools, so I guess it's necessary to hear all the syllabic combinations in spite when you are grow up you my think they are easy to interpolate. And remember that Spanish is like German, you have a straightforward relation between the written form and how you say it. [There are minor pronunciation details, as in any language, for example we sometimes drop some unnecessary letters.]
  - irrational 9y ago
    >you have a straightforward relation between the written form and how you say it This is one of the things I love about Spanish. I've heard people say that English is easier to read than Spanish. I don't know what those people are smoking, but I think it would be too strong for me ;-) Seriously, how would anyone know how to pronounce words like "enough" without hearing them first?
    - labster 9y ago
      Well, that's easy; "enough" rhymes with trough, through, cough, although, and through. ;)
    - squiggleblaz 9y ago
      When I lived in Germany so many people asked me what the secret was to English pronunciation. How could you tell from the spelling how a word is pronounced? I told them to do what I was taught to do when I come across an unfamiliar word - check a dictionary. They were hoping for a different answer. (It's also the answer to "yes/no" questions. Answer in a sentence, don't just say "yes" or "no". There's rules about how English speakers use them "yes" and "no" and when we use full sentences, but if you're asking me, the answer is just "always say 'i do' or 'she won't' or whatever", because it's 100% guaranteed to be clear and unambiguous. It's also easier to remember in the heat of the moment despite the complexity. If you want to be really good, you can practise "no, I don't", but leave "yes, I do".)

by Jedd 9y ago

bitxbitxbitcoin 9y ago

It makes sense as far as I am concerned. Asian languages’ “alphabets” are a testament to this.

spacehome 9y ago
Korean has an alphabet in the sense that we mean. 40 characters, each corresponding to a particular phoneme. You can learn to sound out written Korean in as little as a day of study.
- hrydgard 9y ago
  It was created in the 15th century though, and the creators surely knew of other alphabets.

empath75 9y ago

I think in the sense of characters representing consonants and vowels specifically, but there are several phonetic alphabets — Japanese and Korean off the top of my head.

laretluval 9y ago
The Japanese and Koreans didn't independently invent the idea of a phonetic writing system, though. They knew about Sanskrit, Mongolian script, etc.
gus_massa 9y ago
I think you mean "syllabic". Korean is almost phonetic but it's very recent (1443-1444) and it's influenced by the Latin alphabet family (should I call it Phoenician). It's not a direct copy, but it's not an independent invention. The Japanese language is mostly logographic, but they have two second class syllabic alternatives for students, kids and weird words. They have no traditional phonetic system. If I can add a personal anecdote, I speak Spanish that is a very regular phonetic language like German. When my daughter was learning to read we have to teach her all the combinations of each consonant, for example "ma, me, mi, mo, mu" and then "la, le, li, lo, lu", and then ... after a few letter we imagined that she would pick the regularity and then with a single example like "ba" she would complete the sequence but no, we had to tell her the whole sequence "ba, be, bi, bo, bu". This is similar to the system used in schools, so I guess it's necessary to hear all the syllabic combinations in spite when you are grow up you my think they are easy to interpolate. And remember that Spanish is like German, you have a straightforward relation between the written form and how you say it. [There are minor pronunciation details, as in any language, for example we sometimes drop some unnecessary letters.]
- irrational 9y ago
  >you have a straightforward relation between the written form and how you say it This is one of the things I love about Spanish. I've heard people say that English is easier to read than Spanish. I don't know what those people are smoking, but I think it would be too strong for me ;-) Seriously, how would anyone know how to pronounce words like "enough" without hearing them first?
  - labster 9y ago
    Well, that's easy; "enough" rhymes with trough, through, cough, although, and through. ;)
  - squiggleblaz 9y ago
    When I lived in Germany so many people asked me what the secret was to English pronunciation. How could you tell from the spelling how a word is pronounced? I told them to do what I was taught to do when I come across an unfamiliar word - check a dictionary. They were hoping for a different answer. (It's also the answer to "yes/no" questions. Answer in a sentence, don't just say "yes" or "no". There's rules about how English speakers use them "yes" and "no" and when we use full sentences, but if you're asking me, the answer is just "always say 'i do' or 'she won't' or whatever", because it's 100% guaranteed to be clear and unambiguous. It's also easier to remember in the heat of the moment despite the complexity. If you want to be really good, you can practise "no, I don't", but leave "yes, I do".)